Quoting Kirby but asking everyone.

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by 4ked Horn, Apr 3, 2007.

  1. 4ked Horn

    4ked Horn Writers Guild

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    I'm posting this here to avoid hyjacking another popular post. This quote comes from a discussion on different methods of fireforming brass.

    [ QUOTE ]
    With live fire fireforming loads, it is nearly impossible to get pressures high enough , quickly enough to prevent these pressure dents. Believe me I have tried. Even used MUCH faster powders and lighter bullets.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I am constantly on the lookout for info I can apply to a dream gun I will hopefully build someday so I'm wondering, will this apply to fireforming a .280 Ackley Improved if the chamber is cut correctly so the bolt holds the parent brass forward firmly in the chamber?

    I have heard that excelent groups are often possible with fire form loads and that it is common practice to develop a useable hunting load while forming a large batch of once used brass. Would it be better to cornmeal form through a scrap bbl to get good brass or would the brass turn out ok if a second sporter gun was made and have the chamber cut from the same reamer for shorter range hunting with live fire form loads?
     
  2. Aussie

    Aussie Well-Known Member

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    I only have 2 rifles with improved chambers but have never had any problem with dents . Shoulders were rounded on my first conservative loads with my .243 Ackley but sharpened up as powder charge increased . Kirby might be referring to higher capacity cases ? Never tried the cream of wheat method as I have been able to get acceptable accuracy and velocity with fireform loads .
     

  3. Coyboy

    Coyboy Well-Known Member

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    4ked, You are in luck, just go buy some Nosler brass.

    They make it in 280ai so no fireforming is neccesary, the quality is excellent.

    Buy 100 cases now and give a few to the smith so he can headspace acordingly.

    Personally I have allways loaded the unformed case to book listed max and fireformed all my cases. Depending on the cartrige I may do 100 to 200 cases right off the bat. 100 shots will give you an idea of what the rifle likes and how it performes. Helps break in the bore nicely, so when you load formed brass for accuracy everything is smoothed out and things clean up easy. Yes accuracy with forming loads has always been very good.

    At least with the 280ai this is no longer a concern.
     
  4. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    4ked horn,

    You are taking my comments WAY out of context here. That comment was on a topic about fireforming cases for my 338 Allen Magnum and not in reference to any smaller capacity wildcats.

    When your dealing with a case capacity that uses up to 150 grains of powder you run into issues that you will not with any other smaller capacity cases even including those such as the Rigby and big Wby case.

    When I build Improved rifles for customers, I always range test with live fireforming loads and I would say 75% of the time they meet or surpass my 1/2 moa accuracy requirement with fireforming loads.

    I am also not a huge fan of fireforming 500 cases for a rifle. As such, if a rifle will be a high volume shooter, I generally recommend not to go with a wildcat unless its one that you can cold form cases for.

    For a big game rifle or a dedicated long range rifle, 50 rounds of formed brass is plenty at any given time and as such is not a huge chore to form up this many cases.

    Please to not think that I do not feel live fire fireforming is useful, that is certainly not the case by any means. With my huge 338 Allen Magnum however, there are issues with this type of case fireforming and corn meal forming produces a better result.

    For the 280 AI you will get fine accuracy with fireforming loads if the chamber is set up properly with the correct 4 thou crush fit on the case.

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  5. 4ked Horn

    4ked Horn Writers Guild

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    [ QUOTE ]
    4ked, You are in luck, just go buy some Nosler brass.
    They make it in 280ai so no fireforming is neccesary, the quality is excellent.


    [/ QUOTE ]
    See what happens when I don't visit the LRH forums but twice in 6 months. Everybody starts sneaking in all these new products. That is good news but on the other hand I hope no one starts making the .280 AI as a factory offering in a gun. That would mean I will have to find another easy to form caliber that can't be bought at walmart. 7mm AM perhaps? [​IMG]
     
  6. 4ked Horn

    4ked Horn Writers Guild

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    [ QUOTE ]
    You are taking my comments WAY out of context here.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Thats what I was wondering. Having never fireformed a thing in my life I was wondering how this all worked and how it applied to rounds like the .280. I have even considered making a hydraulic case former in the spirit of Rocky Gibbs design with a few improvements. Again, just gathering info and storing it away for that dream gun.
     
  7. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Wildcat,

    Contact Hornady, they are making hydro case forming dies in any chambering you want. Richard and I tested them in his 277 Allen Magnum but the Lapua case was just to stout for a die like this.

    For the 280 AI however it would work much better.

    As far as formed cases for the 7mm AM, I am working on it!!!

    With a round like the 280 AI, I really do not mind using bullets to fireform cases. Barrel life is very long if cared for properly and accuracy is very good so you can use them in the field. A good weekend chasing chucks will get you plenty of formed cases for a 280 AI and many chucks under its belt as well!!!

    With the 338 AM, its more a matter of nessesity then anything to get a quality case form.

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  8. Black Diamond 408

    Black Diamond 408 Well-Known Member

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    Like what Kirby said.

    When your making a large reconstruction of any case its best to fire form with the cornmeal type process. Lots of bad things can happen when forming with full loads. We had lots of problems way back when....using 300 H-H brass to make a very severe wildcat, cases didnt like the radical form. Now with the 408 cases its about the same thing, you can shoot full loads, but, you may loose some cases along the way and at 2.00 ea. its not fun.
    For most other forms, including AI's, just a moderate load will suffice. I have found that the accuracy is still pretty darn good. Only form enough brass for what is needed, you can allways form more along the way if needed to fill out. There is no reason to form 100 rounds of brass for a gun that you will never shoot more than 20 rounds in a sitting. Its ok to have the brass ready to form, but wear on the bbl for just forming sake. This really comes into play with the large overbore rifles where the bbl life is shorter already. 50 rounds of loaded ammo is a great plenty for one of these type rifles, dedicated long range elk rifle and such. My personal 338-408 i only have about 60 formed cases, some were formed with full loads and others the cornmeal method.

    In a pinch you can take factory ammo and shoot them in your 280AI, they will shoot just fine.

    Dave
     
  9. Black Diamond 408

    Black Diamond 408 Well-Known Member

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    We got several sets of the Hornaday Hydro form dies, for a 7mm 45deg from a 6.5 rem mag case, works very well.

    338-378wby imp, this case forms ok but takes more work as the cases are getting too big for the pressure it takes to form properly. I dont think they are nessesary for the simple AI wildcats, Hey just more toys for the loading room!

    We never have enough toys /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
     
  10. CatShooter

    CatShooter Well-Known Member

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    Has anyone use very light bullets and pistol powder.

    I'm having a 6mm Ackley built, and I have 600 cases. A load of a 60gr bullet and 17 grains of "PB" will give ~55Kpsa.

    I thought an afternoon at the range poppin' these little loads might be the way to go. No barrel erosion with that little powder.

    Also talked to Hornady about the Hydro-forming dies, and they are really slick - they will electro-burn the case to match either your reamer drawing, or your fired cases.

    Each way is about $150 - I don't know which way to go???

    Any thoughts??

    .
     
  11. Coyboy

    Coyboy Well-Known Member

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    catshooter, with a small charge of pistol powder in a rifle case could cause you some problems with ignition. Whether the charge of powder is laying flat or tipped to the front of the cartridge from pointing the weapon at a downward angle. I would hesitate to try it unless someone here had a method of doing it that worked, such as may-be using some type of filler to keep the powder near the web.

    Something to think about.
     
  12. Black Diamond 408

    Black Diamond 408 Well-Known Member

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    Catshooter,

    I dont think you want to do that, that is not a powder burn, that can be described as an explosion or detonation inside the case. Either use the cornmeal or cream of wheat method or just load and shoot. I shot a 6AI for years and just fired loaded rounds with no problems at all. Shooting the 70grn bullets it would hold .200 5 shot groups doing so. I shot the fireforming loads at P-dogs, they didnt know the difference.

    Cream of wheat will flow into the case better than cornmeal.

    Dave