Questions about Scopes

Discussion in 'The Basics, Starting Out' started by 406MontanaHunter, Apr 29, 2014.

  1. 406MontanaHunter

    406MontanaHunter New Member

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    Howdy,

    First post, so bare with me.

    So I started shooting long range about six months ago. Went out and bought what I could with the money, a Howa 1500 .308 with a 20 MOA rail and a NikkoStirling 4-16x44 Targetmaster Scope. The scope works but I can only get about 21.5 MOA out of the turrets. That gets me hits out to 700yds. I tried for 875yds using the mils in the reticle and didn't feel comfortable with the performance enough to shoot an animal. Do I have my gear setup wrong? Seems like only getting 3 1/2 turns out of a turret when I have 11 full turns in the range, isn't using the scope to its best performance.

    If I can't get anymore range out of it I'll start shopping (wish listing) for a new scope. Some features that I would like are:

    Mil Dot Reticle (something like Horus Vison has, kind of looks like a Christmas tree, maybe not as extensive)

    First Focal Plane (I want my mils to stay true no matter the magnification)

    Mil Turrets (would rather 10 mil turrets, but this is kind of a grey area)

    Side Parallax Adjustment

    Zero Stop (sure would be nice)

    Illuminated Reticle (optional, would be nice)

    I am still fairly new to shooting long range shooting and I would like some pointers on scopes that have been used and have most of the features that are listed. I know any scope with these features is going to be spendy, but I'm trying to get fairly invested in shooting so I'll save for as long as I have to get what I want. If you have any other pointers that would help me out or if I messed up a definition of one of the features, just let me know. Pretty much anything helps at this point. I'm basically looking for input on good scopes.

    I don't reload yet, I buy factory HSM 175gr, seems to shoot nicely.

    Thanks
     
  2. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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    You could add a 10-20 MOA rail and extend the serviceability of the scope till you have saved enough for a better scope.

    On a budget I'd tell you to look at the used vortex viper PST series and get the 50mm objective.

    Another alternative is the Zeiss Conquest series with the Z1000 reticle. It won't be dead hold precise at all ranges but if you set it up right it'll get you close enough to get the job done.

    Good thread, it points to why I always tell people to save up as much as they can afford for quality glass then save for a couple of more months. Spend it once, and cry once.

    I know it's hard as hell to sit there looking at a rifle with no scope though for a few months LOL.gun)
     

  3. 406MontanaHunter

    406MontanaHunter New Member

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    WildRose, Thanks for your reply, appreciate it. I knew someone on here would know a lot better than I would.

    I have a 20 MOA base on my rifle right now. Your suggestions for scopes are pretty close to what I'm looking for. I really like the Vortex Viper PST with the EBR-2C reticle, it has pretty much everything I want except the 10 Mil turrets but for the price you can't beat it. It might be at the top of the list. I have some Vortex Diamondback 10x42 binos that I love.

    The Zeiss Conquest with the Z1000 reticle has me very intrigued, I wonder how well that reticle works. According to the Zeiss website, the reticle is set up for 168gr to 175gr .308 rounds. It sounds really nice, but does it work? Does anyone have any input on this scope? The only other drawback is I want a scope I can throw on my next (larger caliber) rifle.
     
  4. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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    My brother put one on his .338 Lapua and shoots it out to a thousand. They give you the instructions for how to set it up or different ballistic profiles and you match as I understand it to their chart. Is it exact? No but you make a range card and verify your drops and learn your hold overs with each subtending cross hatch.

    It's like a lot of other things if you get used to it, it will work well for you.

    All that being said if you are willing to be patient and save up a few extra bucks you can easily move up to a used VX3 LR model with the reticle and all of your choice.
     
  5. FearNoWind

    FearNoWind Well-Known Member

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    OK, Montana, let's talk scopes.
    I couldn't find any data on the internal adjustment for the Targetmaster but the 1/8" click adjustment feature tells me that there's not enough inside the adjustment range to get you where you want to be. With your 20MOA rail you should be able to run it to the top and, over the full range of adjustment, get more out of it than you describe. However, image clarity and other problems develop when you're out that far so you may be beating a dead horse. 20MOA with the rail and another 20MOA+/- in the scope should, however, give you over 300 inches at 875 yards - what's the drop of your .308 at that distance?
    Hints about MilDot scopes:
    Technically, 1mil = 3.6 inches at 100 yards. Most of the MilDot scopes I've used over the years with second focal plane reticles are set so that the distance, center to center, of their MilDots = 3.6 inches at 100 yards at the highest power on the scope. But that's not always true. The Zeiss Conquest 6.5 - 20 X 50 scope MilDot is 1.8 inches at 100 yards. Also, as you apparently already know, the MilDot ratio changes with changes in optical power. Do you know for a certainty how Nikko Stirling calculates their MilDot spacing? (rhetorical question - )
    The Horus Vison "MilDot" is, as you described, more of a Christmas Tree than a MilDot reticle. IMO, it's too busy; too cluttered to be useful as a hunting scope. I've never been able to figure out how they classify it as a "MilDot" scope; except perhaps that its dot spacing is based on Mils rather than MOA.
    The only scope I'm familiar with the meets your dream scope qualifications is the Nightforce. They're VERY expensive but don't let that get in your way. I've known some shooters who have avoided taking the Nightforce plunge, working their way through a dozen other very good scopes, and finally coming to realize that they should have saved a little longer and gotten the Nightforce in the first place.
    Last point - if it's a hunting scope there are reticles better suited to that purpose than the MilDot. Do some more research and you may find another range finder scope that works better for long range field work.
     
  6. machiavelli

    machiavelli Well-Known Member

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    You could try an IOR 3.5-18x50 I run one on my 338Lm,it fills all your stated requirements,bloody great scope and built like a BSH!
     
  7. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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    That is a truly fine optic and the MP8 is my all time favorite reticle.

    Unfortunately he's on a budget.
     
  8. 406MontanaHunter

    406MontanaHunter New Member

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    Thanks for the replies.

    Well after looking at several glass companies, I have come to the conclusion all companies have their own "go-to" reticle. I'm not sure that I like how Zeiss has it all set up, I mean you have to have it on specific magnifications and if its not on that magnification then your reticle is different every time. Maybe you could download there "quick in the field" app and it would be quicker than dialing mils? I took a whirl through their software online and it seems like you could pull up shots a lot faster than mils but if you didn't have the app then your out of luck unless you leave it on that magnification. LOL I'm probably more confused now about what scope I want. So many options. The Vortex Viper might be the way I go then I can just use my dope.

    I looked at that IOR 3.5-18x50. Sick scope, but its so dang expensive. I like that reticle though.

    Thanks again for the replies and I'm always open to comments.
     
  9. FEENIX

    FEENIX Well-Known Member

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  10. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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    If you decide to go with vortex drop me a PM. I'm going to sell a couple that I have and they'll be priced right. They are used but not abused.
     
  11. machiavelli

    machiavelli Well-Known Member

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    406Montanahunter I have seen a number of IOR,s second hand on a number of shooting forums in the USA, if you think they are expensive in the US, over here in NZ they are twice the price you would pay in the US.
     
  12. afwx

    afwx Member

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    I have a Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50 and I've been pretty satisfied with it. I had an issue with it out of the box, so I sent it back and had the issue resolved within 2 weeks. No problems since then after approx 150 rounds on 300WM. I really like the turrets on the PST line and I believe the new HST series is identical aside from the illuminated reticle at a cheaper price point. Definitely worth looking into. If Wild Rose has the model you want you could save some $ and keep peace of mind knowing that if you have an issue you'll be taken care of.

    I am fairly new to the long range game and when I put my setup together I opted for a cheaper Weaver 20MOA rail. I discovered that it definitely doesn't have 20MOA built in. You didn't mention what type of rail you used so if it's a Weaver you might have the same issue.

    Good luck man. gun)
     
  13. Bigcat_hunter

    Bigcat_hunter Well-Known Member

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    I have a vortex PST 6-25x50 and just got it back from repair for the second time. They had great customer service and supplied me with extra swag but if the scope doesn't work it's irreverent. If it doesn't track or return to zero this time I'm going to send it back and tell them to pound sand. This is unacceptable for a $1000.00 scope. I will be testing it agin next week, it better work.