Question: Body die vs modified full length die

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by THOMAST, Apr 3, 2006.

  1. THOMAST

    THOMAST Well-Known Member

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    I recently bought a Redding bushing die and it works great. However, after resizing the cases (Lapua)about 7 times, I'm feeling more resistance on the bolt handle when I'm closing the bolt.I've been told to get a body die that will resize the body of the case, without interfering with the neck.
    My questions:
    1) Is the dimension of a body die(bump die??)the same as a full length die if you ignore the neck dimension of the full length die? In other words, could one in theory make a body die from a FL die by reaming out the neck portion of the die and removing the depriming rod?
    2)with such a die (body die)- are you just setting the shoulder back slightly, or are you also sizing the base of the case?
    I could use a Fl die after annealing, but then I'd have to fireform the cases again to get them to spec and this seems like a waste of powder and bullets.
    I await your answers with bated breath! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
     
  2. Bart B

    Bart B Well-Known Member

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    What you've described is probably the best way to modify a standard full-length sizing die to full-length size cases, set the shoulder back a couple thousandths, size all of the neck and keep it very straight and end up with a case that'll probably shoot more accurate than anything else.

    I'd lap out (or have someone else do it using a lathe to turn the die) the full-length sizing die's neck to about two or three thousandths smaller than loaded round neck diameter. That should hold bullets tight enough so they won't move from recoil while in the magazine. Start by lapping it to four thousandths smaller, then try some loads. That should be fine for box magazine use or it may be a bit too tight. It depends on the elasticity of the brass in the neck. You may end up with two dies; one with a smaller neck for magazine use and one with a larger one for single loading.

    Full-length sizing with such a die typically produces better accuracy than neck-only or partial-neck sizing. And case life with such a die as mentioned above will be very long providing the fired case body diameters are not reduced more than about three thousandths of an inch. I've said it before, but Sierra Bullets has always used full-lenght sizing dies to test their bullets for accuracy and I don't think anybody shoots them as accurate as they do.

    There is no such thing as perfectly round chambers and fired cases and fired case headspace varies a tiny bit. So the idea many folks have that a fired case perfectly fits the chamber is a myth. Non-believers should measure both for roundness (not diameter) and headspace to learn.
     

  3. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Full-length sizing with such a die typically produces better accuracy than neck-only or partial-neck sizing.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    This is not necessarily so. While FL sizing can be as accurate as anything, a hard fast rule stating this is always the case is by nature incorrect. The reason why is because a FL sizer has as much of a possibility of being "off" as a neck sizer does. Your reloaded brass can only be as good as the die that sizes it.

    So, a beginner reading this thread might FL size his brass to make it more accurate but he might be using a low grade die or even a basic RCBS die that isn't running true and now he thinks that his Neck sizer is not to be used and it might actually be a good die.

    There have been swings proceedings in benchrest for the last 20 years. FOr awhile, neck sizing was thought to be best. THen partial neck sizing. Then it was FL sizing. THen it went back to neck. Now it is just barely pushing the shoulder back and necksizing the whole neck with the proper bushing. THIS IS NOT BECAUSE IT'S MORE ACCURATE. It is because of speed. That's right. Speed of operating the action. With the shoulder bumped back just a touch, it ensures that the bolt will close easily and no surprises during the relay will occur.

    A simple look back at the match results for the last 10 years will show that the group sizes have stayed pretty close to the same throughout the different methods of sizing while the 6ppc has been used with N133. FL sizing didn't make them more accurate, it just made them easier to operate.

    [ QUOTE ]
    There is no such thing as perfectly round chambers and fired cases and fired case headspace varies a tiny bit. So the idea many folks have that a fired case perfectly fits the chamber is a myth. Non-believers should measure both for roundness (not diameter) and headspace to learn.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    With this being said, then how would FL sizing make things more accurate since it is making the brass rest farther away from the chamber walls?

    Another point I might make:
    Concentricity is the name of this game. It tells you how accurately the dies are making your brass. And IT IS EASIER (with standard dies) TO MAKE BRASS MORE CONCENTRIC WITH NECK SIZERS SIMPLY BECAUSE A BAD NECK SIZER MOVES LESS OF THE BRASS THAN A BAD FL SIZER.

    I run neck sizers only until I have to FL size on three of my 1k rifles because I have experimented with neckers and full sizers and the neckers gave better accuracy. That being said, I have two rifles that shoot better FL sized at and over 1000 yards. Bottom line: experiment with your own dies, and then make a decision as to what is more accurate with that particular rifle and don't get caught up in the Neck/FL sizing debate because it is not a hard, fast rule. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
     
  4. Bart B

    Bart B Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    (Full-length sizing with such a die typically produces better accuracy than neck-only or partial-neck sizing.) ....a hard fast rule stating this is always the case is by nature incorrect.

    (There is no such thing as perfectly round chambers and fired cases and fired case headspace varies a tiny bit.) With this being said, then how would FL sizing make things more accurate since it is making the brass rest farther away from the chamber walls?

    [/ QUOTE ]The key word in the first part is "typical." Typical means usually, most of the time, more often than not, the majority of instances and other similar definitions. Typical does not mean always. So, what I said is not a "hard fast rule."

    For the second part, the brass typically rests zero distance from the chamber walls at one point. That's the point where the extractor presses the back part of the loaded case body against the chamber wall There will typically be some clearance oppostite that contact point. I really don't know why the mechanics of a smaller case body on a full-length sized case shoots more accurate. It may be because the non-round nature of both case and chamber end up causing less unwanted barrel movement during firing. Ask Sierra Bullets why they get better accuracy using properly full-length sized cases over any neck-sizing method. They've been doing it for over 50 years and I don't think anybody shoots their bullets as accurate as they do.

    The smallest 15+ shot groups at 600, 800 and 1000 yards I know of have all been done with full-length sized or new non-concentric cases in non-concentric chambers. While there have been smaller 5- or 10-shot groups, they are not "typical" because they're at the small end of the group sizes attained. Benchrest single-group records nestle in this area but the many-group aggregates are larger and more closely related to what one can typically expect on average. Note that a rifle rarely shoots a group equal to or smaller than the tiniest one in its barrel's history. But it almost always shoots smaller groups than the largest one ever fired.

    You don't need to 'shout' at me by typing in all capital letters. I can read what you're telling me much easier when you're using initial capitals only.
     
  5. jb1000br

    jb1000br Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    With this being said, then how would FL sizing make things more accurate since it is making the brass rest farther away from the chamber walls?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Wisdom from David Tubb...and affirms my FL sizing routine

    Chamber...NOT completely round/true
    fired case...NOT completely round true

    You wont get the same case position with neck sizing without indexing cases.

    FL cases...sit the same place in the chamber each time...same impulse/harmonics on firing...

    Alsosome cases will fireform more fully than others, but with a FL size and 0.001-0.002" shoulder bump, you have a better chance at identical cases.

    as always, YMMV,
    JB
     
  6. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    The key word in the first part is "typical." Typical means usually, most of the time, more often than not, the majority of instances and other similar definitions. Typical does not mean always. So, what I said is not a "hard fast rule."



    [/ QUOTE ]

    Agreed. Would not have piped up about it except you made it sound like that was a undeniable fact that was set in stone.




    [ QUOTE ]
    It may be because the non-round nature of both case and chamber

    [/ QUOTE ]

    And remember, there is also no perfect die whether it be a neck sizer or FL die!




    [ QUOTE ]
    Ask Sierra Bullets why they get better accuracy using properly full-length sized cases over any neck-sizing method. They've been doing it for over 50 years

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The reason they do it probably the same reason why Barnes next door does it. Because they have to have ammo that will fit in every test barrel they clamp into the vise. It may or may not be the most accurate way of sizing that particular brass, but it has to be done to make it fit.


    [ QUOTE ]
    I really don't know why the mechanics of a smaller case body on a full-length sized case shoots more accurate.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    So what you're saying is that you have no facts to back up your claim that that FL sizing is always more accurate?




    [ QUOTE ]
    They've been doing it for over 50 years and I don't think anybody shoots their bullets as accurate as they do.


    [/ QUOTE ]


    Well if that were the case, I don't think they would sell very many bullets!



    [ QUOTE ]
    The smallest 15+ shot groups at 600, 800 and 1000 yards I know of have all been done with full-length sized or new non-concentric cases in non-concentric chambers. While there have been smaller 5- or 10-shot groups, they are not "typical" because they're at the small end of the group sizes attained. Benchrest single-group records nestle in this area but the many-group aggregates are larger and more closely related to what one can typically expect on average. Note that a rifle rarely shoots a group equal to or smaller than the tiniest one in its barrel's history. But it almost always shoots smaller groups than the largest one ever fired.


    [/ QUOTE ]


    Not sure what the point is here or how it relates to my point that the best groups come from experimenting with neck and fl sizing and picking the best one for the individual rifle.



    [ QUOTE ]
    You don't need to 'shout' at me by typing in all capital letters. I can read what you're telling me much easier when you're using initial capitals only.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    Not shouting at you. Just making sure the point stood out and was read because you seem to not counterpoint with any real evidence or references. It is always either "change the subject" or pull out a long lost opinion which you try and pass as a fact from the Bart B's book of revelations that no one knows anything about. Not trying to flame you here, just saying it as I see it and anyone who knows me knows I state my mind and I wave the bs flag when I hear it. It is my nature.
     
  7. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    You wont get the same case position with neck sizing without indexing cases.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well that is true, and it is also true for FL sizing. REmember, there is no perfect die so if consistency is required, indexing for both methods would be viable. However, that being said, I have fired numerous 6" groups at 1000 yards with both methods and no indexing was used.



    [ QUOTE ]
    FL cases...sit the same place in the chamber each time...same impulse/harmonics on firing...



    [/ QUOTE ]

    That would only be true IF the sizing die used was true, and the springback on the case was consistent, and your case heads were square, and if the ejector plunger was removed. Granted, the difference would be small but it would be small for the neck sizer too.



    [ QUOTE ]
    Alsosome cases will fireform more fully than others, but with a FL size and 0.001-0.002" shoulder bump, you have a better chance at identical cases.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    This is correct. But, cases that have been fired many times and are as long as they can possibly be and still fit in the chamber will be pretty darn close to the same headspace length. It is obviously would help to fire similiar pressures in each case throughout it's life to keep them as close to the same shape as possible. Cases that have been shot at super high pressure can be FL sized .001" back but may not squeeze back as well as another case that has not been fired so hot because of the nature of spring back after sizing.

    I'll give you an example of this. In my 338 thunder, I have fired one case with a way over the top load of RL22 that stuck my bolt shut pretty well. Now when I size that case, the setting on the die will not push the shoulder back .001" like it will all the other cases. It goes down then comes right back out. I have to screw the die down a touch more to get it to FL size that piece back the .001".


    <font color="blue"> Again, bottom line:
    Try both Neck and FL sizing and see which works best for your individual rifle. Both can be accurate just as easy as both can cause problems because there is no perfect die but some are better than others. </font>
     
  8. Bart B

    Bart B Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    The reason they do it (Sierra full-length sizng cases to test bullets) probably the same reason why Barnes next door does it. Because they have to have ammo that will fit in every test barrel they clamp into the vise. It may or may not be the most accurate way of sizing that particular brass, but it has to be done to make it fit.

    [/ QUOTE ]In the beginning, Sierra tried every case sizing method with all sorts of brass makes in all kinds of rifle chambers. They shot thousands and thousands of rounds testing to see what produced the best accuracy. They do now what they learned years ago. Call them and find out. You may be a TEIF person and belong to the FES. But I ain't BSing one bit about full-length sizing.

    As for the rest of your comments in the post containg the above, whatever.....
     
  9. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    As for the rest of your comments in the post containg the above, whatever.....

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yep, that is what I have been saying about 99% of your comments since you joined this forum... <font color="red"> whatever </font>
     
  10. Jimm

    Jimm Writers Guild

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    I await your answers with bated breath!

    Careful there Thomas , breath baiting is probably not allowed in all states /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

    question one , yes !, question two , depends on how you set up the die .

    At what point are you annealing ?

    Oh and by the way GG and Bart B are really brothers and they want to get a reloading / shooting show syndicated so they picked up on the style of the "Orange county choppers " TV show . They really love each other but the potential producers said that was not " good copy " . [image][​IMG][/image]

    Jim B.
     
  11. davewilson

    davewilson Well-Known Member

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    jimm, if they get married, make sure i get an invite. i would love to watch that reception if our brother alcohol is invited!

    i was told by redding they use the same tooling to make the full length and body dies so yes, you could ream the one out to make the other.

    as far as sizing the body of the case,more than likely,most of the time, usually /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif it will get squeezed a little.only way it wouldn't, with normal full engagement proceedure,is if your chamber was smaller than sammi specs.then it might not.

    when is that wedding anyway? don't want to miss it!
     
  12. THOMAST

    THOMAST Well-Known Member

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    jimm, what I am trying to get to is a point where my neck sized cases (which at this point in time are requiring a little more effort to chamber)can be reset with neck die and body die combo so that they chamber easier, therefore less torquing/stress on the case in the chamber.
    However, if I use the body die to bump the shoulder back, its also resizing the head of the case, so I end up with a "partial full length sized" case, with a slightly smaller internal volume and thus a change to the internal ballistics. The way I see it is that I'm going to have to shoot them once and neck size only after, to get back to my original internal case volume. Am I splitting hairs? Or is this the "curse of the search for the perfect round"?
    Oh and I'm destressing or annealing the cases after 4 reloads, using tempilaq to get a constant temperature.
     
  13. THOMAST

    THOMAST Well-Known Member

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    If I take the body die to the gunsmith who chambered the barrel , would it be possible to ream the body die to the same specs as my chamber? Or is this going to destroy the reamer?
     
  14. Jimm

    Jimm Writers Guild

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    Thomas,

    I use a Lee collet neck die and a Redding body die . Adjust the body die to only set the shoulder back one thou . You will have minimally worked the brass in this way . The Lee collet die only resizes the neck and a great part of using one is that you don't have to lube the case while neck sizing .

    I'm not sure if you need to anneal after only 4 firings using the method I described .The Lapua brass I have been using has kept the same "springback" out to 7 firings so far and will probably go longer . I try not to fix it if it ain't broke /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

    Jim B.