Question about the Shooter Ballistic Program?

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by Greyfox, Oct 9, 2013.

  1. Greyfox

    Greyfox Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,689
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    I have established using the tall target test that my NF turrets are .262 MOA. My actual velocity is 2902. I can correct for the turret error using a velocity of 2962. POI has been confirmed out to 1000 yards with this correction entered into Shooter(also corrects using my G7 RF). I am trying to figure out how to use the velocity of 2902 and correct for my turret difference in the Shooter program. I thought that this could be done in the rifle file where you can plug in a vertical correction factor. When I plug in a correction factor of .952 which is the factor to compensate for the turret difference the drop chart gives the new drop data for MOA which matches up perfectly with the 2902 velocity drops and I can use these for my correction, but the drop in inches is not corrected in the chart and reads for .25MOA used with a velocity of 2902. Am I dong something wrong. The program doesn't have a place to enter custom turret values. Any help would be appreciated.
     
  2. chad44

    chad44 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    148
    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2011
    Maybe I'm missing something here but to me it doesn't matter what velocity I have. It's just an input and once I'm verified out to 1000+ yards that's all that matters. If using xxxx velocity doesn't get you first round hits but changing to yyyy velocity does then use the one that works.
     

  3. Greyfox

    Greyfox Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,689
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    I agree. I have been doing that and it works well. I have had no problem shooting out to 1436 yards, the furthest I have shot, using the recalibrated velocity. I have been doing this for quite a few years, particularly with the inaccurate/inconsistent chronograph performance. I almost always had to true up with a corrected velocity. When I got my Magnetospeed I found that it is very accurate. Using the Litz verified BC bullets, precise velocity, and corrected turret movement, the bullets go exactly where they are supposed to without having to correct While it's not absolutely necessary for the shooting I do, I thought it would be nice to use all actual values if I could. I also understand that it is preferable to use actual velocity if shooting in the transonic region. I may have to go to a more advanced program to do this. For now I would just like to be able to enter corrected turret values in Shooter if it's possible.
     
  4. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

    Messages:
    8,853
    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2004
    Greyfox,

    Why not send an email to shooter@kndy.net and make a request with explanation.

    Point him to this thread. It's a good one.

    You last post, above, should be sufficient.

    I think you have a great idea.

    However, I'm a bit surprised that your nf is .264 MOA/click. Makes me wanna check mine on the big gun.

    I, personally, am much more comfortable with actual inputs.
     
  5. Bullet bumper

    Bullet bumper Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,035
    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Are you sure your turrets are .262 MOA and not . 262 Inch because .262 x 4 = 1.048 exactly the inch size of 1 MOA at 100 yards ?
    If they moved .262 MOA at 100 yards per click then 4 clicks would move 1.0976 inch at 100 yards . You need to explain what you think is your turret difference in less words . Because what I see so far leeds me to believe you have 1/4 minute clicks . I may be miss understanding you .
    Shooter can be adjusted to read out in MOA , mils , scope clicks what ever you need . The data like velocity , BC's , sight height , slope range etc etc and Atmospheric data go in and then you make the program read out in what calibartion you need .
    Any BC or velocity trimming you do to equal real world dope is a seperate issue to what calibration you choose to match and use on the scope .
    What you have to be careful of is that the trimming of velocity or BC to match your real world dope has to be done with the same atmospheric and slope range that you experience on the shooting day otherwise you could just be trimming to equal out differing atmosphere and range conditions .
    Under those conditions it will not be as accurate on another day in another place.
     
  6. Greyfox

    Greyfox Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,689
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Thanks Roy, I will send sn e-mail off to Shooter. I began testing turret accuracy when I started shooting my 6.5x284's several years ago. Shooters were reporting velocities that were much higher than I was getting. I have had a number of different scopes that were typically 3-6% higher that stated. Mostly NF and MK4's. Interestingly, and perhaps just luck, I had mounted Huskemaws on my 6.5x284's and both scopes were within 1% of the stated 1/3MOA/click. When I got my Magnetospeed I retested my velocities and drop data for these rifles and they were right on the actuals that were calculated in the ballistic program. I was surprised when I tested my three NF scopes, all running 4-5% high. This error overstates my velocities by 40-60FPS in my 300WM when actual drops are determined during field testing. In the case of my current 300WM it required a 1MOA correction at 1000 yards. I suspect that many of the "true" velocities that are quoted by shooters may not be so true because of turret error.
     
  7. Broz

    Broz Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,636
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2007
    Greyfox, I can not tell what you have going on. But I do believe you are on the right track. The difference between simply adjusting Velocity is it has a different effect across the board. BC, a slightly different effect and stepped BC's sometimes are also needed. When adjusting a turret calibration value, the difference is as you go out farther with a shot you dial more moa. If you have an error in turret calibration and are not spot on .25 moa this error will multiply as you shoot farther. These errors are very hard to detect at 100 yards, 200 yards or 300 yards. But start shooting past 1000, if they are truly there, they will show their ugly heads. I have found this to be the culprit with many scopes where I was satisfied with my drop being on to 1000 but then they were not so good farther out.

    I input the real average MV from a good chronograph. I use Magneto speed and Oehler. Then with the brand bullets I use I have proved BC's to be accurate, so I use the advertised BC. Then I go out and shoot drops out to as far as I will be using the rifle to hunt. If I find an increasing error with distance I adjust the turret calibration value to get it to come in. I usually do not have to change my MV much. Usually within the velocity spread of the ES string. Same with BC's. Only slight adjustments and only if needed for a fine tune.

    Hope this helps you. It does work for me.

    Jeff
     
  8. yobuck

    yobuck Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    853
    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2008
    the other option is not to worry about any of that bs and have a good spotter
    sitting behind you on good tripod mounted glasses.
    you went just off his ass, hold on his nose and shoot again. lol
     
  9. Greyfox

    Greyfox Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,689
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    The coincidence if the 1.048 correction caught my attention as well, but the tall test for 20MOA/20.9' came in at 22" which calculates to .262. I'm pretty meticulous about setting all the other variables you mention. I'm pretty sure my test is good.
     
  10. dragman

    dragman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,448
    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2011
    My 0.02 I don't think the only way to make a true chart is too shoot 100 and shoot a max distance and build the chart from that. You have to use the manufacturers B.C. after it goes through a barrel it is different than advertised but consistant. You have to use the graduation on the scope (as long as it's the same it wont matter). If the scope is perfectly level and the zero is perfect at 100 and you check it at 1500 and then adjust the speed your putting into the chart until it matches your 1500 yard marks then everything inbetween will fall into place. I have always had to add speed to make this happen not because it's going fast but because the B.C. was altered by the barrel.
     
  11. Greyfox

    Greyfox Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,689
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Thanks Jeff. That does help. As I have started to shoot at ranges beyond the thousand yard mark I have experienced the same effects and would also like to keep velocity as an actual value, and work with the variables that either have to be corrected or modified for achieving accuracy at the extended ranges. I have been following a lot of your posts about shooting at the extended ranges and was motivated by them to stretch my 1000 yard limit for hunting game. Art
     
  12. Broz

    Broz Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,636
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2007
    You are going about it the correct way in my opinion. A good log book with all shots logged that were good hits will be a very useful tool when dialing in the program.
    I log,

    Distance
    Baro psi
    Temp
    R. Hum.
    Shot angle
    I always have Spin drift on
    And I log coiolis
    latitude
    and azmuth from a manual compass with degrees.

    It is a commitment , takes a little devotion, but will work if you want it to.lightbulb

    Or, you could just use the old spray and pray method...:D gun)

    Jeff
     
  13. yobuck

    yobuck Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    853
    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2008
    i dont think anybody is advocating spray and pray jeff.
    i think most of us are interested in taking as few shots as possible.
    but its not a perfect world and in hunting situations we have to remember that. here in the east our hills are covered with trees for example. a 1200
    yard shot will be dropping thru a canopy of unseen branches. maybe it makes
    it and maybe it dosent. a shooter laying on his belly regardless of ability just
    might not see what happened. beyond the shooting part there is always the
    possibility of animals changing positions while the shooter is recovering from
    the last shot or otherwise sidetracked briefly. especially during the rut.
    a perfect hit on the wrong animal isnt the nicest thing to be faced with either.
    animals change positions all the time. its very important to keep the shooter
    aware of which one is the target.
    seems to me there is more and more emphasis placed on guns scopes
    various programs and individual ability. that is all fine and especially
    for those interested in extreme distance shooting at various targets.
    live targets however require more than that.
    remember this, many of the worlds best long range shooters live right here. most of them hunt long range and they all do it the same way.
     
  14. Broz

    Broz Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,636
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2007
    Now yobuck, I know you are against technology, and I realize the importance of a good spotter. I was just teasing you a little. Just like you did with me earlier when you followed my post and referred to my methods as bull shit. Right??

    Jeff