Pushing a .338 as fast as possible

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by moosehunter, Aug 14, 2002.

  1. moosehunter

    moosehunter Well-Known Member

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    Im putting a rifle together in my head for now. Whats out there for brass that will move the 300gr. MK at 3000+. 416 necked down maybe? Right now Im match shooting and hunting with a 300WM and Id like to eventually build a rifle just for LONG range matches.
     
  2. DANTEC

    DANTEC Well-Known Member

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    with easy to find case and strong case with good quality

    338 Lapua Ackley IMP ( PPG reamer drawing ).

    with 416 case if wall thickness is strong enought ( 416 Riggy is not a hight pressure round )perhaps Darryl have more information on 416 case .
    chamberring in 338/416 IMP can give more velocity than 338 LM AI

    after radical solution will be 408 Cheyenne neck down to 338 ( capacity of 505 Gibbs light imp) but bolt face is uncommun and cartridge and need true custom action and water capacity became real overbore .

    and for 338 at the speed of the light , cartridge as 338/50 BMJ .

    I still work on my 338/50 BMJ short project actually I have thickness problem with shortended case ( 2.40 inch ) wall are too thick and case expansion is not good but after to solve this problem ( by case boring )I plan to be over 3400 FPS with out any problem , but that a Mach IV caliber


    Good Shooting

    DAN TEC




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  3. Darryl Cassel

    Darryl Cassel Well-Known Member

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    Moosehunter

    The 416 Rigby case when Improved with a 35 degree shoulder and minimum tapor is ideal for the 338 --300 grain bullet.

    I have driven the 300 gr out of my 37" barrel at 3310 FPS with 122.5 grs of powder if I didn't care about loading my brass more then two times.

    I have backed it off to 3200 Fps and the Norma brass holds up quite well. At the 3200 mark the bullet performs extremely well and you really don't need any more speed then that for the 300 gr bullet to perform WAY out there. It has killed elk at 2100 yards for me and I have a friend with the exact same chambering as me who is shooting the 338/416 IMP to 3350 FPS and his group killed their elk a few yyears ago at 2890 yards with 4 witnesses from the Williamsport 1000 yard club.

    I had the chance to buy a 338/50 cal made on the shorter spotter round and turned it down because it would not give the velocity my 338/416 was giving me and it was using a lot more powder. It had a disadvantage in that the barrel was shorter then mine and was not able to burn all the powder.

    Long barrels and slow powders are the answer when getting velocity out of the 338---300 gr bullets.

    Some people keep the velocity of the 300 from 3000 Fps to 3100 fps and the bullet performs well on game.

    At 3200 to 3310 it is "unbelievable" on elk and mule deer.

    I wouldn't want anything more powerful then the 416 size case but, if I did, I would go to the 408 CHEY TAC case (505 Gibbs) and neck it down to 338. There may be a slight velocity increase but, I don't know since I have not tried it.

    I'm happy with the 338/416 Rigby Imp.

    Darryl Cassel
     
  4. DANTEC

    DANTEC Well-Known Member

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    Dear Darryl

    do you the following wilcat can works

    408 Cheyenne brass recut to 416 Rigby lenght
    neck down to 338
    with 35° shoulder
    0.40 neck lenght
    same body taper as 408
    and base rebated by lathe turning to match 338 LM bolt face ( look as 6.5/284 case )

    that solve the problem of the low pressure design of the 416 Rigby and keep the brass more longer
    that be able to use a 338 LM action
    and get some fps more because 408 is bigger in diameter to hold more powder than 338/416 without to get a hudge water capacity .

    good shooting

    DAN TEC
     
  5. DANTEC

    DANTEC Well-Known Member

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    Do you think that the following wilcat can works

    sorry I have keyboard problem

    DAN TEC
     
  6. Darryl Cassel

    Darryl Cassel Well-Known Member

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    Dantec

    I was thinking of keeping the case base and case the same as it is and just neck it on down to the 338 diameter if the 408 did not pan out. I would already have the action.

    A larger action would be needed to do it this way but, your idea of rebating the case base to the 416 Rigby, 378 Weatherby base diameter would certainly work too and does have merit.

    I just hate rebating cases by lathe turning and adding more procedures to my loading process. I did that with a Hart action (standard Mag) and rebated the 378 Weathertby case so it would work.

    Concerning the other thread,
    I feel the same as you about the 30/378 Weatherby after having 2 or 3 of them. There are many 30 Cal wildcats such as the 308 Baer, 30 Goodling, 308 DC Super IMP and the 300 RUM that are right there with the 30/378 Weatherby in every aspect. Much cheaper to shoot and longer barrel life too.

    For the other poster on the other thread, I would just jump on the 408 and get to it, unless it was my first LR rifle.
    It would probably not be a 30/378 though.
    Maybe just a 300 Weatherby or 300 Winchester Mag with at least a 30" barrel hanging on it?

    Take Care Dantec and good shooting

    Later
    Darryl Cassel

    [ 08-15-2002: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
     
  7. DANTEC

    DANTEC Well-Known Member

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    Dear Darryl

    Thanks for your answer , as soon as I sucess to get cases in 408 ( I hopes soon ) I form several cases ( I have home made a Neil Jones over size forming die set tools with bushing ) I use it for my 50 BMJ wilcats and can use it on 408

    I can ''cut'' a fireforming chamber by EDM by this way I can get a first case to get the true water capacity

    lathe turning for rebated in not a problem for me I have screw making lathe that I can set up to do this job , be able to use 408 case on regular action is perhaps a clever way to promote 408 Cheyyenne case ( increase product and need ) on regular action ( no so costly perhaps )and a way to get amazing velocity in 338 cal with out giant action .

    have think about relive the 300 PHOENIX cartridge , this round was design when new generation powder was not available but now that can be an answer for big 30 on 338/ 30/378 bolt face action .

    good shooting

    DAN TEC
     
  8. 338Guy

    338Guy New Member

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    I am extremely interested in hearing from DANTEC on his experiment with a 338/408 Chey TAC. I have been considering doing this myself but have really been wondering if I would gain much if anything over a 338/416 Improved. Has anyone else tried this cartridge? The 408 Chey Tac brass seems to be very strong and should have a lot of potential especially with a 338 300 grain bullet.

    Also would appreciate hearing from Darryl about who has a reamer for the 338/416 improved and where I can obtain dies.

    Prairie Gun Works has a 338 based on the 408 Chey Tac but they do not have any information on the cartridge's performance.

    Neat website with some very good information. Wish I had found it a long time ago.
     
  9. MontanaMarine

    MontanaMarine Well-Known Member

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    From Darryl:

    "I have a friend with the exact same chambering as me who is shooting the 338/416 IMP to 3350 FPS and his group killed their elk a few yyears ago at 2890 yards with 4 witnesses from the Williamsport 1000 yard club."

    A 300gr SMK at 3350 fps MV works out to around 950fps/604 ft lbs at 2890 yards. Drop is about 2.5" per yard at that distance. ( with a BC of .760)

    An error in wind reading of only 1 mph results in an error of over two feet. a 3 mph error results in an error of 7 feet.

    How many rounds does it take to make a killing shot on an elk at 2890 yards? If it is more than one, I have to put it in the category of "unsportsmanlike" and a cruel stunt. A sick self-gratification.

    Your mileage may vary,

    MM

    Wait a minute,

    I guess that means that a cartridge capable of squirting a 300gr SMK at a mere 1400fps is an effective elk round out to 1000 yards. (in the hands of a practiced marksman, of course)

    Lets see, a .338 WinMag can puke a 300gr SMK at 2450 no problem. That makes it a valid elk round out to 2100 yards....right? with a LRF of course.

    Makes me wonder why anyone wants a 338 RUM.

    I've heard on this board that a .338 WinMag is only good to about 600 yards or so.

    A lot of conflicting information. I'm feeling dazed and confused. I hope someone can straighten me out....
     
  10. Brent

    Brent Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Jerry completly.

    The drop of about 2-3" per yard at 3000 yards and about 48" of wind deflection per 1 mph of wind is accurate with my program.

    Undoubtedly conditions were perfect and sighter shots for elevation etc were taken before moving to the animal. These guys are not into this to make hailmary shots on game but exactly the opposite. They invest time and money in big ways to perfect their ability at this too.

    A person shooting in less than perfect conditions at these ranges is foolish to say the least, but if conditions are perfect, the distance is near maximum but entirely doable with their equipment, experience and practices, no doubt. It is far out of my reach for many reasons and without much thought it would seem improbable to many.

    Their odds are better than most I know that only hunt close range and practice regularly.

    They have much more time to wait for a good shot, to accuratly check wind before the kill shot, to set up before the shot, and to take the shot etc. etc. etc.
     
  11. MontanaMarine

    MontanaMarine Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the feedback Jerry.

    Yes, I have studied the subsonic ballistics of the 300gr MK. They are impressive.

    I guess in my mind, the change in point of impact at 2890 yards can change so dramatically by a minor wind change, or even a 20fps variation in MV, or the animal moving during the time of flight(3+ seconds?)that the probability of putting the first one into an 18" target at over 1.6 miles seems pretty low. Even after firing a "registration" (pardon my artillery terminology) on a point nearby.

    But you are very correct in suggesting I do not have experience in this type of shooting. But, as an artillery FO with over 23 years service, I believe I can appreciate it more than most.

    This type of shot is almost akin to shooting artillery. We use detailed meteorological data as well. Even the rotation of the earth during TOF is calculated. With perfect Met data(we fly a balloon to get conditions aloft, our max ord. can be several thousand feet), surveyed gun positiion, surveyed target location, and having registered on a known point, our first round rarely hits within 20 meters of a target even at a relatively close 10,000 meters. Granted, a 155mm howitzer is not as precise a weapon as LR heavy rifles.

    I do not doubt the elk was killed at over 1.6 miles. Boyd did state the elk was killed by a double shoulder shot. (But an exit hole the size of a volleyball by a projo traveling under 1000 fps seems like a bit of embellishment.) I am curious how many shots were fired at the elk, how many bullets hit the elk, and where they hit the elk, by the time he was dead. I also am curious if the elk was a penned game farm elk, or a free roaming critter on public land.

    I am interested and fascinated in this extreme LR shooting. I personally could not pull the trigger on a big game animal at that distance with a clear conscience though. Under the best of conditions, the chances of a first round humane kill are too unlikely for me.

    Reading everything that Warren Jensen has related on the .408 Chey-Tac thread only reinforces my opinion on this.

    Thanks again, MM

    [ 11-08-2002: Message edited by: MontanaMarine ]
     
  12. Mysticplayer

    Mysticplayer Writers Guild

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    MM,

    Let's say that the rifle combo has a mechanical accuracy of 1/2MOA at long range. At 2890yds, the min. group size would be 14.5". So it is mechanically possible to hit an 18" to 24" target at that range.

    From the type of info that is posted, I would think that these LR rigs can shoot better then 1/2MOA, the bullet certainly is.

    The wildcard are the conditions. I agree that conditions would have had to be ideal to even consider the shot. I guess we could ask the hunter how many shots actually were needed to make the kill. Anyone know?

    Another point that is often mentioned, is that game hit at extreme ranges tend not to jump and run. I guess the noise from the shot is so subdued that it can't scare the animal and the impact is such that the animal feels pain but may not know why. Most account that their game moved a little and bedded down without much fuss.

    I live in a town where many compete in the Ironman Triathalon. I even work with one. When you look over the task, you really think these people are nuts and that fatalities must be commonplace. However, when you see some people complete the event and just walk off to dinner, you know there are specialists in just about every extreme field/sport.

    Any thoughts on what the mechanical accuracy of the 105's are? 10,000meters on an elk would be interesting. If you connected, you would not need to worry much about gutting or skinning. Would bullet placement still apply with this "cartridge" or would close enough be sufficient? To a 105, is an elk a varmint?

    You put forth some good thoughts. I think most on this board have considered these in detail and are truly LR hunting because it is within their capabilities.

    Makes you understand why a $3500 rangefinder is a must have.

    Jerry
     
  13. MontanaMarine

    MontanaMarine Well-Known Member

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    Jerry,

    I would estimate that the odds of a first round hit on an elk at 10,000 meters with a 155mm ( We still have 105s in the inventory, but the M198 155mm howitzer is the workhorse in the USMC)is far worse than 1 in 200. I'm not talking about effective casualty radius, I mean steel on steel, errrr...steel on fur [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] .

    As far as mechanical accuracy on a howitzer, well thats classified. The guys who calculate the firing solution are in the FDC(Fire Direction Center) The FDC sends a Quadrant, Deflection, and charge ( and shell/fuze/fuze setting) to the gun line. I am not a detailed expert in this aspect of the operation, because as an FO, I spend my time out front with the supported infantry, doing my piece. Anyway, the FDC arrives at their firing solution after factoring many things some of them, that come immediately to mind:
    Range to tgt
    elevation
    air temp
    powder temp( how hot is the gun?)
    barometric pressure
    humidity
    wind
    powder lot
    projo lot
    fuze lot
    barrel age (rounds fired at different charges)
    muzzle velocity(each round is recorded, dependingb on the Btry or Bn Cmdr)
    earth rotation

    I know I have missed a few factors, but it is pretty comprehensive. Keep in mind that the Marine Corps is not noted for lots of new equipment( our barrels, and howitzers are well used)

    I will tell you that one gun firing by itself can put succesive rounds a pattern generally within 50 meters or so on flat terrain at around 14000-16000 meters. Max range with RAP (Rocket Assisted Projectile) is over 25,000 meters.

    Generally, a Battery(6 guns) or a Battalion (18 guns) will shoot the FFE (Fire For Effect)with each gun given a different firing solution to maximize the desired effect, based on the shape/size of the target. We normally disperse the FFE over a large area, up to several hundred meters in width depth or both.

    When real precision on a point target is required, we load up a round called copperhead. Copperhead is a semi-active laser guided projectile. It contains a laser seeker and can steer itself to a point designated by a spotter illuminating the target with a laser. (this one can shoot minute of elk out to max range, but costs $10,000.00 a pop [​IMG] [​IMG] )

    Good shootin'. And thanks for your feedback. MM

    [ 11-08-2002: Message edited by: MontanaMarine ]
     
  14. Charles A

    Charles A Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I can help. As far as I know there were 5 shots. Three spotters and two actualy at the elk.The forth, I belive went a little high, they corrected with the next and killed it. One round hit the elk. The bullet made a hole that big because it tumbled once inside the animal. Darryl shot one at 2100yds and it went through the elk and a tree behind it.
    And yes 300grs of lead is deadly at any range.

    Montana Marine, as far as embellishment goes Darryl is one of the most distinguished LR shooters/hunters on this board and alive. I doubt that he has any reason to lie.


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