Pseudo sort of long range practice

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by Mike6158, Jan 6, 2010.

  1. Mike6158

    Mike6158 Well-Known Member

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    I had an epiphany... which just means that I finally got around to thinking about something everyone else thought of 20 years ago :cool:

    I have a Ruger 10/22 with the bull barrel, gee whiz everything adjust pistol grip stock... I upgraded the trigger (very sweet trigger), and manged to let it fall over and destroy the uber el-cheapo scope that came with it. I just put a set of Leupold Mark IV rings on it just to see if they would work (I bought the wrong height and I like 1" scopes on my .22's). That's when I thought "hey... I wonder if I can practice shooting this thing at 200-300 yards and gain anything from it. I already shoot sub-moa with my .308 and 7mm mag. 7mm mag out to 600 yards and .308 at 300 yards (so far). But if I could practice with my 10/22 out to 300 yards and get anything from it that would be sweet as hell. I can do that right out of my back door. I've got the room and a .22 won't bother my neighbors that live a 1/2 mile behind me and to my north like a 7 mag with a compensator would (that sucker is loud). Not to mention it's cheap.

    So what if-

    (1) I put one of my good 1" tube scopes on my little Ruger
    (2) shot some of the ammo through a chrony to get velocity data.
    (3) measured bullet drop and plugged all of the pertinent data into LB3.0 and let LB3.0 do the calcs for me.

    Wind would be interesting... that's for sure.

    Any thoughts? Is 300 pushing it for a target .22 with a good scope? 200?

    I also have an older bolt action Reminton .22LR that shoots pretty well at 100 yards. That might be a better platform than a semi-auto
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2010

  2. Bull45cal.

    Bull45cal. Well-Known Member

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    Great thought Mike6158,

    I like you discovered this thought well after everyone else. I did my research and work with my Marlin M# 60. I could only get about 1.25 MOA out of her though (that is 1.25 MOA or better 95% of the time, 0.75 MOA 50% of the time). Well, that is still pretty good for a $100 gun, with Wolf Match Target ammo. I did all kinds of research and read, and read. I came to the understanding through experience (I don't always take some else’s word for it) and study, that I was expecting a lot from my little rig. It is possible to do what you’re wanting, but takes a lot of time and testing to insure your rig is capable of reliably giving you the accuracy you need to perfect your skills. I have read, and experienced for myself, that .22 ammo is very fickle. Temp differences greatly affect some ammo's and firearms. I have found that some .22 ammo's only like a narrow range of temp, while others are a bit more robust. The wind reading skills required for shooting the .22 at 300 yards are considerable, and if you can get your rig to perform well enough, the benefits would be worth the effort (I have read of skilled shooters hitting small targets as far out as 500 yards). I would try it out if I were you, but be prepared to get frustrated many times.

    Bull
     

  3. Mike6158

    Mike6158 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah... I'm always behind the cutting edge of things :D

    My little bolt action Remington is a little over 30 years old (that blows me away. It's the first rifle that I ever bought myself. My dad gave me all of the others) and it's been a while since I've shot it but I've gotten 3/4" groups out of it at 100 yards. Consistently. But... a 100 ain't 300 :) It'll be fun to play a little and it won't cost much.

    I wonder (about) what kind of velocity I can expect out of run of the mill .22LR ammo (40 gr)?
     
  4. darrindlh

    darrindlh Well-Known Member

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    Great thought Mike1658,
    You made a light bulb go off over my head. Post the results when you get a chance.


    Darrin
     
  5. BillR

    BillR Well-Known Member

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    I do that all the time. Total HOOT shooting Prairie Dogs out to 300 plus yards with one. I have a Remington 541T HB with a 6.5X20X40 VXIII scope on it with a set of Stoney Point turrets on it and shoot as far as the turrets will let me.
    I also have a Kimber SVT with a Nikon UCC 6.5X20X40 on it. I shoot it a bit better but the shorter barrel keeps the range down just a bit. Both guns love Wolf Match Ammo and on a good day both will shoot just under 1" at 100 yds.
    Great practice guns and really make you work the wind a lot which I like as it teaches a person a lot on how to deal with the wind. The Remington with its longer barrel is really quiet to shoot and does not seem to scare the PD's much with the standard velocity Wolf Match ammo. You will run out of clicks though as you get further out and then its a guessing game. Very fun to play with.
     
  6. sp6x6

    sp6x6 Well-Known Member

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    I have a neat old win 22 mag w/ cheapo cabela BDC scope on it , it is a blast, try to find the ammo it likes and have fun. Great for the kids to practice.
     
  7. Bull45cal.

    Bull45cal. Well-Known Member

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    Mike,

    I only got my Chrono a few months ago, and haven't been able to get Wolf Match Target ammo here for over a year. I did test some other ammo's, and it went like this.

    Rem. Subsonics = 970 fps, ES 126 fps, SD 35 fps
    Agulia Centurion = 1200 fps, ES 105 fps, SD 29 fps
    Rem. Yellow Jackets = 1280 fps, ES ? (high though), SD ? (high as well)

    I don't have all the ammo's I had at one time, but since I have the chrono I'll be testing more.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2010
  8. Kevin Thomas

    Kevin Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Mike,

    I'm always amazed that more centerfire shooters don't still shoot smallbore as well, and that many seem to regard it as kid's stuff that you outgrow when we move on to highpower toys. Nothing further from the truth! There is NO better trainer out there than a smallbore, so yeah, you're onto the "secret." I have my highpower and smallbore silhouette rifles set up identically; M700s for the HP guns and 40-Xs for the smallbores, but in the exact same stocks, same barrel contours, same triggers, scopes, etc.. When I'm on the gun, I can feel literally no difference between the two until the shot breaks. I do the same with my prone guns (usually an M70 for CF and another 40-X for rimfire); same stock, same trigger, same sights, etc.. Ditto for my service rifles, with an Accuracy Speaks .22 LR identically matched to my competitive ARs.

    We frequently shoot a 200 yard match after our State Championships or regionals, just for fun as a side match. That's a real stretch for a 22 LR, and is very much akin to shooting 1,000 with a centerfire. Based on that, I'd call 300 yard shots as little more than a random contest to find the field's most unlucky PD on that particular day. It will teach you a lot about wind, though, and any time on a gun is always a potential training op, so go for it!

    A word about ammo, though. Smallbore is a bit of a different world here, and as backwards as this sounds, avoid the high velocity ammo and go with standard velocity stuff; usually better accuracy and notably less wind drift.

    Kevin Thomas
    Lapua USA
     
  9. Buffalobob

    Buffalobob Writers Guild

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    Two thoughts

    A Ruger 10-22 can be very fickle about what ammo it wants to shoot accurately. You should test a lot of different brands and velocities.

    You can spend a fortune swapping parts into it with no appreciable results other than economy stimulus. Mileage may vary.

    My 10-22 likes Rem Yellow Jackets and Eley high speed stuff (read $$$$)
     
  10. Mike6158

    Mike6158 Well-Known Member

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    Kevin- It doesn't look like Remington sells a 40-X rimfire anymore. Their custom shop has a Model 547 Classic. They also sell a Model 40 XBRR KS but it's a centerfire rifle (oddly enough it's listed under rimfire). They make a Model 700 Custom C Grade in .22LR (bet that cost a penny or two)

    <EDIT> I think the Remington Custom Shop site is all hosed up. A lot of the specs that I read there make no sense at all

    Bob- I'll have to start with the 10-22 so I'll play with ammo. I'm glad that I read not to go high velocity ammo. That saved me a learning step :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2010
  11. sp6x6

    sp6x6 Well-Known Member

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    If you shot target pistol, standard is the norm, but it is only 50'. But high velocity can be hard on some of the high end pistols, just wears and tears them faster, plus you shot 1000 rounds a year
     
  12. Kevin Thomas

    Kevin Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Hey Mike,

    Sadly, the 40-X seems to be a project type item these days. I bought a couple through the CMP a couple years back and have built some competitive guns off those. They do apparently still have the 40-X on some sort of basis, as they just quoted me a price of an action yesterday for insurance purposes. UPS managed to destroy a shipping tube and subsequently lost a 40-X action and a Hart barrel I'd sent off to a smith to be assembled into a Hunter Class SB Silhouette rifle. Remington gave me the price to replace it and said they'd do one up for me, but it doesn't seem to be a catalog item any longer. I'm sure I can chalk this one up to just one of the perks of being "in the industry"and I truly do appreciate that. Beyond that, I think they're relegated to purely custom type status, and I couldn't find them list on their web/catalog site either. Real shame, since they're beautiful rifles and a pleasure to work with. Last time I bought a barreled action directly from them (Remington) was probably15 years ago, and that one went into my prone gun. Price at that time was somewhere around $1100-1200 or so. Since then, the CMP has had them occasionally, and I've tried to take advantage of that when I could.

    Regardless of the rifle being used, the rimfires are a great form of not only practice, but competition in their own right. I never could understand someone willing to spend big bucks on a centerfire, but then balking at spending simlar money on a rimfire. I do a great deal of centerfire shooting every year, but still expend more rounds through my rimifre guns in either practice or competition. Besides, with only one exception that I can think of, virtually every Highpower National Champion either does or did shoot Smallbore extensively; there's more than just a coincidence there. David Tubb, Nancy Tompkins, Tom Whitaker, etc., were/are ALL smallbore shooters. No better training tool, and I'll stand by that comment.

    Kevin Thomas
    Lapua USA
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2010
  13. 4th_point

    4th_point Well-Known Member

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    I've been using a 22lr for practice for awhile now. I have a CZ Varmint with single-set trigger, 20 moa rail, and 20x Super Sniper. I can get a little over 300 yards with the elevation turret using bulk pack ammo (36gr). With stingers I can get to ~400 without using holdover. I'd have to check my notes, but I think I used a BC of 0.1.

    My favorite time to shoot is when the ground is dry since the dry dirt allows me to spot my shots easily. I shoot at a very steep hillside from 100 to 300 yards, and randomly choose informal targets like rocks, clumps of dirt, chunks of wood, etc. Reading the wind and shooting at 300 yards is really a lot easier than you would think. I literally spend hours and hours shooting like this, and with a bolt action the ammo lasts a long time.

    After shooting a 22lr at 300+ yards it makes me want to "push the envelope" into the blazing fast realm of the 22 magnum, or... 22 Hornet!

    One last thing... there are some rimfire tactical matches in Cali and probably other places, and snipershide has a rimfire forum. You can also find rimfire tactical targets that you can print.

    Good luck!