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Long Range Hunting & Shooting
Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????
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<blockquote data-quote="Eric Stecker" data-source="post: 727980" data-attributes="member: 8908"><p>Bullridety,</p><p> </p><p>I don't want for you or anyone to think that I don't appreciate feedback, good or bad. Good feedback helps others and frankly sells more bullets. Bad feedback is an opportunity to improve which, if handled properly, educates shooters and inevitably sells more bullets. Neither scenario is bad for the shooting sports or Berger. </p><p> </p><p>Thank you for your response to the questions. I pulled our production records for the 180 gr lot 4250 and didn't see any notations that stand out as relevant. I can confirm that we used the correct jackets (not thick jackets). </p><p> </p><p>Your load is 0.8 gr more than we list for the max load in our loading manual which means only that it is not excessively high or low so nothing there to comment on. </p><p> </p><p>The fact that you didn't modify the tips is good. I think it is worth considering what happens to the bullets in a magazine but my gut tells me that if this is the root cause of our problems then we are in much worse shape than I'd like. I would think that our bullets should be able to handle such activity but this hasn't been confirmed either way yet.</p><p> </p><p>The results with the 338 cal Tactical are not surprising. We can't compare them to the results that Jeff is having with the 215 gr Hybrid Target because the jacket on the 338 cal is considerably thicker than the 30 cal by comparison. </p><p> </p><p>We made the 338 cal much thicker to overcome performance problems when pushed at high velocity and pressure. We may have gone overboard but the people using these bullets (military) can't afford this type of poor performance (erratic trajectories and extremely poor accuracy). The new 338 cal 300 gr Elite Hunter is made with a different jacket to allow for more rapid expansion on game.</p><p> </p><p>We have been kicking this situation around the room and have zeroed in on the next thing that we are going to test. That is the closed tip. Assuming this is the cause for the sake of discussion, it explains a lot of what we observe. For example, when we test bullets we get back, they perform as expected. </p><p> </p><p>Also, hunters will report that one or a few bullets failed to perform out of a box rather than all of them. Another observation is that a lot that doesn't work as expected for one hunter works great for another hunter. This closed tip situation connects several confusing dots which indicates that the result is bullet specific rather than lot related.</p><p> </p><p>In this case we won't need the bullets back since what we do need is to test bullets that have a closed up nose (you can't put a pin or staple into it). We can find those here. I've asked our Plant Manager to have someone go through the hunting bullets that are in our stock to see if they find any bullets that have this condition and to set them aside.</p><p> </p><p>After we collect some of these we will shoot them in media to see what happens. We will also shoot bullets from the same lot into the same type of media for comparison. It is my opinion that bullets perform differently in media since it is constant and living tissue is marbled with various densities and structure. This doesn't mean that we can't see meaningful results in media but we need to be careful not to jump to conclusions without thorough testing.</p><p> </p><p>Regards,</p><p>Eric</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Eric Stecker, post: 727980, member: 8908"] Bullridety, I don't want for you or anyone to think that I don't appreciate feedback, good or bad. Good feedback helps others and frankly sells more bullets. Bad feedback is an opportunity to improve which, if handled properly, educates shooters and inevitably sells more bullets. Neither scenario is bad for the shooting sports or Berger. Thank you for your response to the questions. I pulled our production records for the 180 gr lot 4250 and didn't see any notations that stand out as relevant. I can confirm that we used the correct jackets (not thick jackets). Your load is 0.8 gr more than we list for the max load in our loading manual which means only that it is not excessively high or low so nothing there to comment on. The fact that you didn't modify the tips is good. I think it is worth considering what happens to the bullets in a magazine but my gut tells me that if this is the root cause of our problems then we are in much worse shape than I'd like. I would think that our bullets should be able to handle such activity but this hasn't been confirmed either way yet. The results with the 338 cal Tactical are not surprising. We can't compare them to the results that Jeff is having with the 215 gr Hybrid Target because the jacket on the 338 cal is considerably thicker than the 30 cal by comparison. We made the 338 cal much thicker to overcome performance problems when pushed at high velocity and pressure. We may have gone overboard but the people using these bullets (military) can't afford this type of poor performance (erratic trajectories and extremely poor accuracy). The new 338 cal 300 gr Elite Hunter is made with a different jacket to allow for more rapid expansion on game. We have been kicking this situation around the room and have zeroed in on the next thing that we are going to test. That is the closed tip. Assuming this is the cause for the sake of discussion, it explains a lot of what we observe. For example, when we test bullets we get back, they perform as expected. Also, hunters will report that one or a few bullets failed to perform out of a box rather than all of them. Another observation is that a lot that doesn't work as expected for one hunter works great for another hunter. This closed tip situation connects several confusing dots which indicates that the result is bullet specific rather than lot related. In this case we won't need the bullets back since what we do need is to test bullets that have a closed up nose (you can't put a pin or staple into it). We can find those here. I've asked our Plant Manager to have someone go through the hunting bullets that are in our stock to see if they find any bullets that have this condition and to set them aside. After we collect some of these we will shoot them in media to see what happens. We will also shoot bullets from the same lot into the same type of media for comparison. It is my opinion that bullets perform differently in media since it is constant and living tissue is marbled with various densities and structure. This doesn't mean that we can't see meaningful results in media but we need to be careful not to jump to conclusions without thorough testing. Regards, Eric [/QUOTE]
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Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????
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