rscott5028
Well-Known Member
Are Palma rifles/barrels equally as accurate as competitive bench rest rifles at 600+ yds?
Please explain.
Thanks
Richard
Please explain.
Thanks
Richard
Palma vs Benchrest?
- Thread starter rscott5028
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Yes.
They've been tested from machine rests and off the bench. They'll hold at least 4 inches at 600 yards, some even smaller. When Sierra's 155-gr. Palma bullet was first introduced in competition back in 1991, top long range shooters from around the world all felt the ammo would hold 3 inches or better at 600 yards. A random test of that 1991 ammo put 20 shots in 2.7 inches at 600 yards. More recently, 1000 yard tests with better powders and bullets have 10-shot groups at 5 to 6 inches. The Palma record is 450-39X. Course of fire is two sighters then 15 record shots at 800, 900 and 1000 yards. Thirty-nine shots stayed inside the 10-inch X ring. the rest inside the 20-inch 10 ring. That's with aperture sights and a 3.5 pound trigger, slung up prone on the ground, fighting pulse beat, doping the wind for each shot and trying to hold the rifle exactly the same way for each shot.
Compare the above to NBRSA 600 and 1000 yard aggregates. Note agg's are the average of several groups. If one stacks each target of the aggregate atop one another then plots each of all shots fired, the composite group will equal what Palma rifles do and be larger than the aggretate score. Latest benchrest 6-group 1000 yard record LG 3-target Agg was 5.782", while the HG 3-target Agg was 5.779." So all shots probably went into about 7 inches. I've done that well shooting brand new 30 caliber magnum cases from a Winchester.
There's no way a Palma rifle could compete in a benchrest match. Same for a benchrest rifle competing in a Palma match. If you know the details of how each one is held, sighted and fired, you'll understand. While the inheirant accuracy of both are the same, one shoots under one half MOA groups to win, the other shoots two MOA or more and wins.
They've been tested from machine rests and off the bench. They'll hold at least 4 inches at 600 yards, some even smaller. When Sierra's 155-gr. Palma bullet was first introduced in competition back in 1991, top long range shooters from around the world all felt the ammo would hold 3 inches or better at 600 yards. A random test of that 1991 ammo put 20 shots in 2.7 inches at 600 yards. More recently, 1000 yard tests with better powders and bullets have 10-shot groups at 5 to 6 inches. The Palma record is 450-39X. Course of fire is two sighters then 15 record shots at 800, 900 and 1000 yards. Thirty-nine shots stayed inside the 10-inch X ring. the rest inside the 20-inch 10 ring. That's with aperture sights and a 3.5 pound trigger, slung up prone on the ground, fighting pulse beat, doping the wind for each shot and trying to hold the rifle exactly the same way for each shot.
Compare the above to NBRSA 600 and 1000 yard aggregates. Note agg's are the average of several groups. If one stacks each target of the aggregate atop one another then plots each of all shots fired, the composite group will equal what Palma rifles do and be larger than the aggretate score. Latest benchrest 6-group 1000 yard record LG 3-target Agg was 5.782", while the HG 3-target Agg was 5.779." So all shots probably went into about 7 inches. I've done that well shooting brand new 30 caliber magnum cases from a Winchester.
There's no way a Palma rifle could compete in a benchrest match. Same for a benchrest rifle competing in a Palma match. If you know the details of how each one is held, sighted and fired, you'll understand. While the inheirant accuracy of both are the same, one shoots under one half MOA groups to win, the other shoots two MOA or more and wins.
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rscott5028
Well-Known Member
So, a heavier barrel on a heavier action with meticulously hand loaded ammo makes no difference?
In other words, you could tweak the stock of a Palma rifle to fit the front/rear rest, add a scope, and compete head to head in a benchrest competition?
If that's what you're saying, then you might as well accuse the benchrest guys of insanity.
Furthermore, it seems to go against 90% of the advice in these forums.
thanks
richard
In other words, you could tweak the stock of a Palma rifle to fit the front/rear rest, add a scope, and compete head to head in a benchrest competition?
If that's what you're saying, then you might as well accuse the benchrest guys of insanity.
Furthermore, it seems to go against 90% of the advice in these forums.
thanks
richard
Yes.
Yes.
They're not insane. They just do something different, not better.
It goes against 99% of what folks all over the world think's needed for best accuracy.
Accuracy's repeatability in the hardware. Doesn't matter how much it moves when the shots fired. As long as it move the same way, excellent repeatability will happen; shots knot up in tiny groups way downrange.
Check this link out for a top level Win. 70 based Palma rifle abilities then compare it to current benchrest long range aggregate scores fired in matches as well as records:
Whidden's Winning .308 Palma Rifle within AccurateShooter.com
If that's not convincing, I'll post a .41 MOA 20-shot groups fired at 800 yards from my Palma rifle. Its ammo had up to 3 thousandths runout, full length sized cases and the original Sierra Palma bullet seated in WCC60 cases put in a standard SAAMI spec'd chamber with a bit shorter lead for that shorter bullet to touch when chambered. Those cases fit that chamber like a turd in a punch bowl.
I think it does, I have 3 friends that shoot bench. Dont know particulars rules etc, but 10 shot small groups of 3.83,4.85 and 6 match aggs of 4.8,5.8 this is from guys in my valley. The one friend of mine has about 10 targets with under 3'' 5 shot groups, has a hard time doing it in match for 10 count and w/wind. A guy they shoot against out of state has shot 10 into 2.85.17 lb light gun, the one guy is building a heavy gun 300wsm right now, these guys shoot 6mm dashersat 3050 ' 1000 yard
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The 1BS HG 10 match agg is 5.9" which is 10 consecutive matches over 10 different days. Not a single one time group.
The IBS LG 10 match agg is 5.3 which is 10 consecutive matches over 10 different days.
That is consistency, not the execptional one time group. If that is measured, then the BR has 10 shot records of 2.2" and 5 shot records of 1.4"
John Whidden is a really unique shooter that has shot some amazing groups prone and is the guru at reading the wind no doubt, and even he says a .6 Palma gun is a "competitive advantage" Palma gun.
.6 in 1k BR will not even routinely win a relay, you must be .4-.5 in daily match conditions.
Now .6 in a prone gun is exceptional shooting no doubt and my hats off to them that can do it. Joh Widden is one who can.
BH
The IBS LG 10 match agg is 5.3 which is 10 consecutive matches over 10 different days.
That is consistency, not the execptional one time group. If that is measured, then the BR has 10 shot records of 2.2" and 5 shot records of 1.4"
John Whidden is a really unique shooter that has shot some amazing groups prone and is the guru at reading the wind no doubt, and even he says a .6 Palma gun is a "competitive advantage" Palma gun.
.6 in 1k BR will not even routinely win a relay, you must be .4-.5 in daily match conditions.
Now .6 in a prone gun is exceptional shooting no doubt and my hats off to them that can do it. Joh Widden is one who can.
BH
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rscott5028
Well-Known Member
With wind and other conditions being such a huge factor at 600-1k, I think it's apples and oranges to overlay aggregates onto a single target and call it a 20 shot group. For that very reason, most f-class shooters want to shoot their full string in short order before conditions change.
Along the same lines, the actual accuracy of the rifle takes a back seat to reading and compensating for wind.
My curiosity about the comparison of the rifles is from an engineering/design perspective.
If I understood Bart B correctly, he's suggesting long/skinny/whippy vs short/fat/stiff doesn't matter. It all comes down to repeatability.
I can't disagree with the need for repeatability. But, I think fat/stiff is easier to attain repeatability although the degree of benefit may be insignificant due to one's ability to read/compensate for wind.
-- richard
Along the same lines, the actual accuracy of the rifle takes a back seat to reading and compensating for wind.
My curiosity about the comparison of the rifles is from an engineering/design perspective.
If I understood Bart B correctly, he's suggesting long/skinny/whippy vs short/fat/stiff doesn't matter. It all comes down to repeatability.
I can't disagree with the need for repeatability. But, I think fat/stiff is easier to attain repeatability although the degree of benefit may be insignificant due to one's ability to read/compensate for wind.
-- richard
rscott, I to find this interesting. My friends rifle has a alum. action, too make weight for the barrel, that looks like my jeep drive shaft,29'' He sorts and measures everything, seat with a way of measuring pounds of pressure,these are further sorted for match or practice or if he thinks he has right conditions for a record. Like mentioned above, he is very keen on windreads.Im justtrying to pick up a few tips to help out my lrhunting
rscott5028
Well-Known Member
exactly
BH, in highpower/Palma, when one says they've got a .6 MOA rifle, they mean that's the worst it will do. And they typically shoot 15 - 20 shot groups to test it. That's cause that's what they shoot in one string of fire. The best Palma hardware averages .4 to .5 MOA. at 1K. And once in a while, they'll shoot 5 holes clustered in under 2 inches, with aperture sights.
I don't know what a long range benchrest rifle will shoot for a 20 shot string. Or even a 30 shot string. Here's what my Palma rifle (with 20X scope for aiming precision) did at 800 yards for 20 consecutive shots:
That's about .41 MOA. Best I could hold was about 3/4ths inch wobble area slung up prone with the rifle stock's fore end and toe on a rice bag.
Here's two 15-shot groups shot with my Win. 70 chambered for the .30-.338 Keele Long Neck. 190 grain Sierra's alternately with 200 grain HPMK's. All 30 shots in aboiut 20 to 25 minutes. Hold was about 1 inch in area shot the same way as above. Note each 15-shot group is virtually the same size; about 6/10ths MOA, but the 200-grain load shot lower on the target. Shots with each bullet weight were alternately fired to check accuracy over a 30-round shot string. Note the 200-grain group was shot with new uprepped cases; the 190's shot with 2X fired full length sized cases.
My friend that shoots bench at 1000.Format is 10 shots for relay, 7 1/2 '' 10 ring I think. In 2010 he shot 6 agg. and 10 agg. matches, 60 shots 4.88, 100 shots 5.89, that was during there shooting season. They have small group and other points. At a recent shoot 2 guys shoot 100 x 5.62, and 100 x 4.66 ''.17 lb. light gun. I find the shooting very good, when you see wind, mirage and such, and the palma seems to have more of the element of shooting form from the shooters
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blipelt
Well-Known Member
"Keep it simple and the same" is what my friend always tells me. It works for him, and he is always in the hunt for the top seat. He shoots a 15lb. rifle for both light gun and heavy.
Brent
Brent
Note that those agg's are the average group size. At least a third to half of them are larger. The size of the largest one represents the real accuracy of the rifle and ammo.
Depends. mostly on the individual rifle, and the skill of the shooter.
F-open rifles are shot at palma matches, from the prone position. Are we calling them palma rifles for the sake of this conversation?
Well if we are than I would say yes. I have f-open rifles that show a propensity to hold sub 1/4 MOA under good conditions. With weight limits of 22 lbs. these guns are built similar to br rifles with the major differnce being stock design.
