Once fired brass sticking (that was fired from the same rifle?)

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Wookie316, Nov 25, 2009.

  1. Wookie316

    Wookie316 Well-Known Member

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    Well, I am not sure what to do next? I'll start off with all the details of the load & rifle.

    24 1/2" (cut down from 26" originally) #2 contour Ted Gaillard barrel chambered in 264 Win Mag. Chamber is throated long for a COL of 3.495 with a 140gr Accubond. I seat the bullet so my COL is 3.480.

    Gaillard

    Barrel is fitted to a Sako AV action that has been trued & trigger set to 2 1/2 lbs. Barreled action is bedded to a Brown Precision stock. A 4.5x14x40mm LR Leupold B&C reticule. Scope is mounted with Talley high rings & mounts (high mounts fit me much better than low mounts).

    [​IMG]

    The load is as follows.
    Win brass
    215F match primer
    140gr Nosler Accubond
    72gr H870 (down from 74gr as I was getting pressure signs & extraction issues with new brass)

    Now I was having problems at 74gr as described above, so I dropped down to 72gr. Now new brass seems to work fine at 72gr, no extraction issues, also the fired new case will go back into the chamber no problem.

    My once fired brass (out of this rifle) is a different story. I first thought it was a trim issue because my first 20 rounds I didn't trim & was over the 2.500. It was not by much though, 2.509.

    The next 20 once fired rounds were trimmed back to 2.486. Today's field test came up with the same thing, a little tug after the bolt is lifted to extract the shell. I am getting light scratching above the belt on the once fired rounds?

    Funny thing is the measurements on the new brass & once fired seem to be the same above the belt. .513 above belt & .493 at the shoulder.

    Normally I neck size cases, but I decided to F/L size these. Reason being when I was working up a load for the rifle, I wasn't as good at keeping brass separate as I should have been. I knew some of the loads were a bit warm. Now most of the warm loads brass was pitched, but rather than pitch the rest I figured a F/L sizing would get me back in check for the most part.

    Now if it was the odd once fired round that was sticking, I'd write that off to a hot load case that got mixed in the batch of brass, but it seems I am getting sticky extraction each load with the once fired brass.

    Would my load still be too hot? I am 2gr less than max in the Nosler manual, 6.3gr from max in the old Hornady manual, 4gr from max in the old Speer manual & 1gr from max in the Hodgdon manual.

    With my load I am right around the 3100 FPS range according to my chrony. I checked my balance beam scale to verify it was correct with another one I have & found it to be good.

    I am hoping I have over looked something & don't have to drop my charge anymore. Does anyone have an idea out there?

    Thanks
     
  2. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    Quickload brings me to the same velocity(3109fps), and 55Kpsi.
    SAAMI max is 62Kpsi, and nothing jumps out as a problem with your load.

    It almost sounds like the brass is too soft.. Or that there is not enough barrel steel around the chamber.
    Is this a magnum action?

    Could it be bolt timing?
    Normally the case would break free of it's grip by full bolt turn.

    I don't have an answer.
    But I would focus more towards the gun build, and brass, than load.
     

  3. Varmint Hunter

    Varmint Hunter Well-Known Member

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    I had and still have a very similar problem with a custom 300 RUM with minimum spec chamber.

    New brass with handloads feed and eject normally. Once fired cases that are reloaded feed fine but are difficult to extract. Difficult enough that it requires a few taps from a cleaning rod that is inserted from the muzzle.

    I've been around and around with the smith who believes that it is caused by the brass. However, I used Federal brass and Remington brass from different lots and get the exact same results. I was using Redding S type FL dies and switched to a Forester competition FL die; same problem.

    According to Redding, who I emailed the reamer specs to, the chamber is just a bit too tight and will require custom made dies. According to the gunsmith, he has chambered other rifles with the same reamer and they are not having this problem so it can't be chamber size.

    Remember - factory new brass feeds and ejects fine even with maximum loads so I tend to agree with Redding. In my opinion, the chamber needs to be recut with a more generous reamer. The factory brass works because it is slightly smaller in dimensions than a properly FL sized case. That's my guess anyway.
    Not sure what is causing your problem but maybe my experience will lend a little insight to a possible cause. Good luck

    VH
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2009
  4. sdeviation

    sdeviation Well-Known Member

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    Im curious tooo to find out
    had a Winchester chambered in 300 bee and it did the same thing ,,,also noted small scratches in front of the web.....i thought it was the previous owners cleaning regiment that did this.
    but if i lubed the case in front of the web extraction was fine
     
  5. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    The common factor so far is new builds with magnum cartridges.
    Are you guys sure you have the needed barrel steel around your chambers?

    My basis;
    On firing, large chambers present a large area for pressure to exert. The chamber expands, and of course the brass with it. Normally the brass springs back, and the chamber definitely will.
    If there is not enough barrel steel around these large area chambers, the expansion increases, the springback of the chamber follows, but the brass can't springback so much. This leaves an interference fit similar to brass in a body die(hence the observed scratching near the webs).
    In a sense, your chamber becomes a die, and your brass is somewhat stuck in it.

    Factory magnum guns use larger barrel tennons to account for this.
    A good example, is a Savage WSM action. It's not like the others.

    Just tossing in something that would be easy to overlook.
     
  6. anachronism

    anachronism Well-Known Member

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    It sounds as if your dies aren't sizing the enough in front of the belt. I had a similar problem with my 338 Win Mag. The solution was a separate body die that squeezed the case a wee bit more in front of the belt. This was several years ago & I don't remember who made that body die, but until I sold it a few years later, I sized the body & neck separately, with different dies. Mine was a custom with a tight chamber too.
     
  7. LewisH

    LewisH Well-Known Member

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  8. Wookie316

    Wookie316 Well-Known Member

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    Barrel was shortened from muzzle end. I use Redding dies with the comp shell holders. The shell holders go from +.002 to +.010. I am using the +.002 right now.

    New loaded shells (my loads) go in & out of the gun no problem, as well as the once fired brass that has been sized. It is after the once fired brass is fired that I require a tug to get it out.

    Last night I neck sized a once fired round with the 72gr H870 load. I trimmed brass to 2.486, cleaned burrs off the neck & loaded again to 72gr H870. I also cleaned the chamber in my rifle. It was dirty, but nothing out of the ordinary. After the neck sized round was fired, my case stretch was only .001 as I measured it at 2.487. It still needed a light tug to extract the fired shell.

    On closer inspection it appears to be scratching ahead of the belt about a 1/8" wide mark on the case. I cycled the spent case back into the chamber about a 1/2 dozen times in the field & it appears there is about 1/2 dozen 1/8" marks ahead of the belt on the case now.

    I am thinking that there is a rough spot where the belt ring was cut into the chamber now. What do you guys think?
     
  9. Chugiakbilly

    Chugiakbilly Active Member

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    Hi guys. As a retired gunsmith with over 30 years of experience this is a common problem with 'tight' chambers (minimum spec) and maximum spec dies. RCBS noted this condition and brought forward their Small Base loading dies. THESE are a must with ANY auto-loader or pump action to insure your reloads will function properly. Many an unfortunate hunter has learned this the hard way on his first Bear hunt. A knowledgeable Alaskan guide makes his client test ALL his ammo before placing them at risk. This is more than a PR ploy - a wounded Brownie can and several have out-ran a horse to cause considerable damage to the hunter and/or his back-up guide because the client's rifle had extraction or feed problems and couldn't make a follow-up shot. This can be a problem irregardless of the action involved, be it bolt,auto or pump. Modern receivers are sized for the caliber intended and most magnum barrels are over-sized and won't thread into the receiver. It's when a person runs a chamber reamer into an old Spanish Mauser action in order to come up with a hot modern magnum that interesting things begin to happen. As far as your reloads sticking - this will only happen because your loads are not sized small enough to chamber or they are TOO hot and the cases are being extruded into areas of your bolt-face they were never intended to enter. Extreme care is the order of the day. Keep your powder dry.gun)
     
  10. lloydsmale

    lloydsmale Well-Known Member

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    just had a simular problem with a 7stw. Brass would stick even with mild loads and would even stick if you took brass fired in the gun and chambered it empty. It too showed some light scratching on the cases. I sent it back to remington and they polished the chamber and it works fine now.
     
  11. AZShooter

    AZShooter Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Chugiakbilly.

    IMO there are two other possible causes for your problem. It could explain why your gunsmith has not seen this problem with other rifles he has built with the same reamer. ONE your chamber is not perfectly true to bore and a slight bind is causing this issue. TWO he sanded/polished more metal out of the chamber after reaming on the other rifles. I know because I encountered these problems when first machining my own barrels.

    I have a borescope and can SEE if a chamber job is true by looking at the throat . One of my first rechamber jobs with a rem takeoff was not true and there are different length lands in the throat. (Gordy Gritters video shows what to look for) That 6mm-284 would scratch the case just in front of the web. Bolt opened up easily but wouldn't move rearwards without considerable effort. I polished the area and it is no longer an issue. So far I have not seen any issue with primer pockets prematurely opening up which could happen if the rear of the chamber got too large.

    I have two 338 RCMs that were chambered by different gunsmiths. Both were machined true. The chamber reamer uses the exact specifications that Hornady uses. I know because I talked with Lonnie. Redding's FL die did not size the brass enough and I had the same issue that you had with your 264. Hornady's FL die works better but it is still not enough.

    I had a talk with Dave Kiff and he said this is common with the WSM, SAUM and RCM brass. His solution is to offer a reamer and FL die blank that is smaller to reduce the size of the case far enough for easy extraction. I have mine on order. Dave also said polishing would solve the issue BUT it was not the proper way to solve it.

    I always wondered why one of the gunsmiths I used would sand the heck out of his chamber job then polish before installing the barrel. Fewer comebacks especially if his setup wasn't perfect which I have discovered is the case. Imagine using a 3 jaw universal and a headstock spider with no allowance for chamber end pivoting. No copper ring or short soft jaws were used in the 3 jaw universal. AND the reamer is installed into a tailstock chuck with no flexibility for proper centering. Now for the wierd part....all of his jobs shot well. My first very crooked chamber job with that previously mentioned 6mm-284 shoots 80 gr nos bt into 1" groups at 200 yds with a 7 lb sporter.

    I realize I got off topic slightly but perhaps this can explain why you have an issue. Can you get a borescope and inspect the throat? That would be very enlightening.