Nightforce turning in badger rings

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by HARLEYRIDER, Oct 3, 2008.

  1. HARLEYRIDER

    HARLEYRIDER Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    59
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2007
    I have had to reset my NF twice this week. The scope is rotating counter clockwise the first time, clockwise the next in the rings.

    This in on my Lapua shooting the 300smk, recoil is stiff but I didn't figure it would cause this. Talked with badger yesterday, They said it was unheard of with their standard rings.

    They offered to exchange them for a set of their max50 rings but it would be 2 weeks before they had a set ready, so I just purchased a set from ebay.

    I noticed all their rings branded for the milatry were of the max50 design, full 1" rings 6, 8/40 screws in the caps.

    Any ideas here guys?
    ?
     
  2. Sendero_Man

    Sendero_Man <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

    Messages:
    1,706
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2007
    I use Glen Seekins rings and haven't had troubles yet...

    on 243 AI and 7mm... nothing that recoils like what yours is though...

    Seekins are great and lower profile too.
     

  3. MagMan

    MagMan Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,008
    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Have you tried lapping them yet? I know they say they don't need to be lapped but they do.

    I have a Badger base and NF rings and if I showed you how far they were off you probably wouldn't believe me. Either the base slots are crooked or the rings are. After lapping also add some rosin powder or Skotchkote for a little added insurance.
     
  4. jmden

    jmden Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,725
    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2003
    I haven't seen a scope ring/base setup that wasn't out of wack yet. Leup PRW's, 2 sets of Leupold Mark 4's, Seekins rings and base combo, etc.

    I think they all are out of wack--quite clear when you use an alignment tool. I wouldn't want my expensive scope being torqued around because I wasn't willing to spend $40 on a lapping kit--very easy to do. Just make sure you get a kit that include alignment tool so you can tell if you're making progress and so you don't overdo it. One well know company told me to just go through lapping process a few times and call it good--no need to check for alignment. Right. Their kit didn't come with an alignment tool. I've done this several times and wouldn't want to do without an alignment tool. Would you "take a shot in the dark"?

    Lap 'em and reblue or whatever necessary to hold off rust. ML McPherson reccommends Loctite 609 retaining compound around the scope where the rings contact to help hold it all together.

    Make sure you have all the torque specs for the individaul size screws for the base and rings and use a quality in/lb torque wrench and loctite 222 on the threads.

    Just my experience. Good luck!
     
  5. dbhostler

    dbhostler Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    837
    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2002
    Not to start a fight here, but there are a couple observations I would like to make. First of all I never mix bases and rings from different manufactures. Secondly, I hand fit the one piece base to the receiver and locktite it down. Next I clean the rings, mount and torque with torque wrench. I check alignment with a tool. Then the scope is cleaned and mounted and caps tightened. I feel the caps should have the same gap on each side and be really, really tight. Especially on the heavy recoil rigs. I use Bager rings and bases the last few years and have never needed to lap the rings for proper alignnent. I know Nightforce recommends you do this, but when I ask a custom smith, one that is well known on this site, if I should lap , he about bit my head off. He was right. Some use "friction paper" between the scope and rings, but I have never done this with Bager pieces, nor would I recommend it. The "Max" rings should solve your problem, but let us know what happens. Very interesting, rotating one way then the other.
    db
     
  6. jmden

    jmden Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,725
    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2003
    db,

    It is interesting about the non-lap vs. the lap ideas. I'd like to hear some more very good reasons of why a person shouldn't lap any combination of rings and bases. I'm certainly very open to learning anything I can. So, I'd sure like to have someone explain how putting a significant bending force (not that it's actually bending the tube--just the force) to the tube of your scope can could be a good thing. I'm certainly no expert and would like to learn. I don't think any of us would want a force applied to any part of our barrel, receiver, etc. of that kind. Isn't that that the reason that we bed receivers and float barrels to do away with forces like that that might cause inconsistancies? De-stress the receiver/barrel , de-stress the scope? Maybe I'm full of hot air, but I'd sure like to learn why so I can change my understanding of this.

    I've used Leup bases and Leup Mark 4 tactical rings and found them out of alignment. I've used matched Seekins rings and bases and they were off as well. No big deal. That's what lapping is for, right?
     
  7. dbhostler

    dbhostler Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    837
    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2002
    I guess the simple answer to your question is, I haven't had to lap any of the Bager rings when used with a Bager one piece base. Other mounting systems, like Leupold, Burris, etc, I have lapped them in the past and I don't use them anymore. Ring lapping only removes a few thousands anyway. If you need to take off more than that, you have an alignment problem. That is why I mentioned I begin with hand fitting the base to the action. You can't "bend" the base and expect the rings to properly align. By the way, for me, two piece bases are out, too much chance of introducing error. This is what I have found over the 50 years of hunting and shooting. I've tried just about all the name brands in the, "pursuit of perfection", and this is what I use today. And that's not to say that another method won't work for someone else. Furthermore, tomorrow I may find a way that fits me even better. My comments are where I'm at right now.
    db
     
  8. MagMan

    MagMan Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,008
    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    I'm sure any smith would rather me try lapping my rings in lieu of me sending a rifle back because it was shooting like crap. Not sure what you would do otherwise.

    Like you said everyone has there own way of doing things and I've just found mine to be a little different.
     
  9. dbhostler

    dbhostler Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    837
    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2002
    Maybe I wasn't clear enough about the gunsmith comment. I'll put it another way, he assured me lapping Bager rings would not be necessary.
    db
     
  10. jmden

    jmden Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,725
    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2003
    Hi db,

    Not sure what you mean by hand fitting bases, but I've had the same problem with Farrell and Seekins picatinny rails at least (havene't used Badger stuff) matched to the same man. rings or not.

    I've followed McPhersons advice on mounting bases basically 'lap' (there's that word again...) the base to action using wrap a piece of 320 grit around the action and very carefully move the base back and forth until about 1/2 of the bluing/anodizing is gone at the mating surface of the base. This gives a closer, more custom fit as the machining on the base or that action might not be perfect. Then use Loctite 609 retaining compound between the two and carefully place the base and torque the screws to spec (carefully cleaning the screw threads and action thread beforehand by running a tap and die and cleaning with acetone to get the grease off so the loctite product can do it's job) using loctite 222. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

    But with a pic rail, it shouldn't matter as is should be machined perfectly and the bottom of the rings, if fitted and carefully pushed forward agains the next increment of the pic rail, should all align, but I haven't seen it happen yet--be in alignment, that is. I've just come to the conclusion after doing this several times with several setups that though the alignment should happen in a perfect world, this is far from a perfect world and alignment doesn't happen when it's checked for with proper tools. Just my experience.
     
  11. dbhostler

    dbhostler Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    837
    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2002
    I do just about the same when I lap the base, but I usually have to take off more than he recommends. You can see where you're at when you tighten one end of the base. If you can see day light, then you have more to take off. As for "perfectly", I don't know what the manufacturing tolerances for their pieces are but I would assume the higher the price, the closer they would be. It would be interesting if someone from this site, that has the equipment, would do some checking and report back. I haven't tried it, but you can always mount the rings on the scope first and then on the rail and torque them down. I guess you could blue the surfaces where they make contact to see how they mate and if you have to remove material for that "perfect" fit. You should do this anyway if you switch scopes between firearms and back again.
    db
     
  12. jmden

    jmden Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,725
    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2003
    Hmmm...interesting and informative discussion. Thank you.
     
  13. squirrelduster

    squirrelduster Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    418
    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2007
    In the past I used Leupold rings and bases and had two sets of rear rings shear off that little tab the side screw tightens to. They were both installed using the alignment tool and then lapped.
    I have a set of Warne mounts on a Nightforce 20moa rail and have not had a single issue with them. I noticed when I went from the 1" scope to the Nightforce 8-32x56 that is now on it was when all the problems started. I thought the scope had problems but it was all ring related.
    I defintely agree with the comment to not use two piece bases, especially in a large caliber heavy kicker.
    Muzzle brakes seem to make a huge difference in the scope mounting hardware also. It seems that the two actions of the recoil of the rifle and the action of the muzzle brake to stop the recoil causes two directional forces of movement at almost the same time.
    I can't prove this but my brother has the same setup as I but not a muzzle brake. He has not had a single problem with scope mounting.
    Sort of strange that your scope twisted in both directions. I would expect it would only go one way. Same rest set up on both days?
    Just something to think about.
     
  14. HARLEYRIDER

    HARLEYRIDER Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    59
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2007
    No it was not the same rest set up both days. The first time I noticed the scope had moved I just had shot three rounds at my 1000yrd gong.

    These shots were taken off a harris bypod from a wooden shooting bench, I had my sweat shirt under the legs to soften it some, This is the first time it moved and the scope rotated counter clockwise this time.

    Either way the Max50 rings will be here tommorow, I hope they will fix my problem.

    I have alway's used nailpolish under my rail, something I had read on here in the past, and I started applying the practice from than on, Never really knew if it helped much, just kinda gave you a little more confidenance in your mounting job.

    Early this year when I sold my sendero and moved my rail from it to my Lapua I removed the base screws and had to take a little hammer and give the base a tap to remove it from the gun.

    I was impressed with the holding power of just a little nailpolish, I think I apply this process to my scope rings this time when I mount it again, could'nt hurtlight bulb