New Leupold reticle

Discussion in 'Long Range Scopes and Other Optics' started by 82ndreddevil, Feb 2, 2012.

  1. 82ndreddevil

    82ndreddevil Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    96
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2011
    So I am sure everyone has seen the new reticle by Leupold, the call it an MOA reticle. I fully understand and I have been trained on the MIL reticle as well as how you use MOAs to dial in your dope. But how do you use a MOA reticle? Has anyone seen this before?
     
  2. sp6x6

    sp6x6 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,042
    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    i GOT A E-MAIL THAT IT WAS out. Did nto bother to look at it because I favor Mil. If you trained mil, why would you have any interest, get a Leupold TMR, m5 turret, and ffp,best of everything or splurge and get 34mm model w/locking turrets
     

  3. Scot E

    Scot E Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,312
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    If you know how to use a MIL reticle then you know how to use an MOA reticle. They are both angular measurements. The only difference is the size of the measurement.

    There are many, many MOA reticles on the market. Leupold is just about the last company to offer one.

    If you understand MIL and MOA turrets and MIL reticles I am not sure why you don't understand MOA reticles. Maybe I am not understanding your question.

    Scot E.
     
  4. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,248
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2003
    Scot E, while MILs and MOAs are both angular, thay aren't the same quantities.
    So math for range estimation would be different, right?

    Well I should just blurt it all out,, but I'm a laser ranger/dialer..
     
  5. sp6x6

    sp6x6 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,042
    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    The angular measurment is 1/1000 of a radian. So it is a ratio that stays the same no matter what type of measure you give it.1mile@1000 miles,1 meter@1000 meter,1 yard @1000 yrd, 10 cn@100 meter, 3.6''@100 yrds.mill based works in tenths, not hard to figure.
     
  6. 82ndreddevil

    82ndreddevil Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    96
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2011
    Well I saw a few different responses, perhaps I was not clear on what I was asking. First off I am definitely not looking to try anything new, I understand mils so I am sticking to them. And yea I understand an MOA is a measurement just like a mil or a degree, you just gotta know what they represent and how to apply them to get your dope. I was just wondering if anyone was familiar with that particular reticle. If you look at a mil reticle they seem very simple regardless if it is the more known one measured in tenths or the Marine version that is measured in eighths. That MOA reticle by Leupold just looked very busy and did not make much sense to me. But I do appreciate the feedback guys
     
  7. gunaddict

    gunaddict Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    495
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    I received a email from Alan Ransom( Head of Leupold Technical Services) Jan 9th and he said the MOA reticle won't be avaiable until next year. He said they might be able to speed things up but won't know until May of this year. Well I quess they sped things up. I will contact him and find out.
     
  8. sp6x6

    sp6x6 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,042
    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    The e-mail I got was from LRH:) tHE reticule is in conjuntion w/ Darrell Holland, and is the Moa ART, I think you could get the mil model which would interest me, because it has more detail than TMR AND numbers for counting moa or mil. The moa model has 30 moa down and 4moa for wind, says release date Feb. I LIKE EM
     
  9. Scot E

    Scot E Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,312
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    I understand your point but the concept is still exactly the same with either. This is just me but I think the biggest mistake guys make when they use MIL or MOA is to get all caught up in the math of it all. If you are using either correctly, at least correctly in my view :D, there really is no math to worry about.

    I would guess for about 90-95% of the shots taken it just isn't needed and actually makes things much more difficult and confusing. Most of us use a rangefinder to determine range then use a chart or software to determine dope corrections. That requires no math. Even sighting in or calling misses requires no math if you just use the reticle to determine how many MILS or MOA you were off with your reticle, then adjust and shoot again. No math. I see so many guys measuring in inches how far off target they were then fussing over the math to convert inches into MILS or MOA then figuring how many clicks they need to adjust their turret. Instead all they needed to do was visually measure through the scope the difference in POI vs POA in MILS or MOA and then dial that amount into the turret. ( For clarification what I mean is that MILs would be dialed into a MIL scope and MOA would be dialed into an MOA scope) No math needed! One of the great things about angular measurements and a good MIL or MOA reticle is all you have to do is read how far off your shot was from center in MILs or MOA and then adjust the turret accordingly. The next shot will be dead on. SIMPLE, QUICK, AND NO MATH! lightbulb So much easier! Now having said that I do use a scope that has a sufficient reticle to do what I just mentioned. A duplex reticle isn't going to be nearly as user friendly in this regard but is still doable with practice.

    I do understand that if you are going to use the reticle to range a target that you have to use math. But I would guess the number of guys that do that with today's rangefinders are very small.

    Scot E.
     
  10. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,248
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2003
    Sp6x6, MOA isn't based on 1/1000 of a radian, and an MOA is not 1yd @1Kyds.
    Scot E, from any angle in your post I take that the only value in these reticles today is in adjusting for MISSES.
    Seems like more efforts to account for missing -than hitting!

    I spot-laser range, dial elevaton in MOA, hold off for wind(in inches), mind my level and kill my mark. I do this in SFP with a med-fine crosshair, one shot.
    If I miss, the mark lives another day. THIS IS REALITY

    Now, are y'all suggesting that if I miss, I should walk down to my critter's position, kindly ask it to freeze right there, Monk out where my POI was w/respect to the critter and my shooting position(I don't know, trace out broken grass?), thank critter, hike back to original shot, wave a flag to give sporting warning that I'm gonna try again while holding off at some angular correction?
    Or are you suggesting that hunting is better done with a vulcan spotter that can actually declare all aspects of my missing -on animals -in the field?
    C'MON
     
  11. kcebcj

    kcebcj Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,215
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    I have not seen it nor can I find it. Anyone have a picture of the reticle or a link?
     
  12. Scot E

    Scot E Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,312
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    That wasn't exactly my point but it did make for a humorous response from you! :D Good word picture!

    My point is simply this. There are specific times when guys have the tendency to use math and it messes them up, slows them down, and confuses them when it really is unnecessary.

    1. Sighting in- My point was that it can be done at any distance with no math by just comparing POI to POA and then adjusting your scope accordingly. For example, you miss the aim point by xyz amount. It doesn't matter how many inches you missed right and high. All you need to do it just put your reticle on the POA and then read how many MILS or MOA your POI was away from POA. Then dial that into your scope and you are done! Next shot should be almost perfect. This is equally effective for sighting in or verifying zero once you get to your hunting destination. I simply pick out a rock, shoot it, and if I need to change something due to elevation change etc, then I measure with my reticle how much I need to move. One more shot to verify and I am done.

    2. Practice- The same concept can be used for shooting steel or rocks etc.. As you are practicing, let's say working on your wind doping skills, you miss to the right. You realize you didn't judge the wind correctly. Well, how much did you misjudge? Lets say in this example I was shooting at 700 yards and was off by 14.5 inches to the right. By using the reticle I don't care how many inches off I was. I would simply measure with my reticle, right from my shooting spot while still in prone position, the difference in POI to POA and in this case it would subtend to 2 MOA. So on my next shot I would hold or dial for 2 more MOA and if conditions stayed the same and I did my job under the gun the next shot is dead on.

    Also, for me, practicing and working with an an angular measurement (MIL or MOA) instead of inches for wind drift and elevation is much easier for me to begin to build a visual understanding in my mind of what certain conditions are doing to my bullet compared to trying to do that using inches. So in the example above it is easier for me to think through the fact that the crosswind and down draft was causing 2 more MOA of drift than I was originally estimating than it is for me to try and use 14.5 inches as the difference in error. Much easier to extrapolate out for future shots if I keep it in MOA or MILS.

    3. Shooting with a spotter- In this example the same illustration can be used but now you have a buddy spotting for you. It is so much easier and faster to have him call a right miss of 2 MOA than it is for him to call a right miss in inches. Most of the time it is hard to even figure out how many inches the miss was when you are looking downrange 700 yards. So the spotter ends up guessing then the shooter has to guess how to hold that amount, or they have to take the time and do the math to turn 14.5 inches into MOA, but the 14.5 inches was a guess to begin with so we are adding error even if we do the math. So then a lot of guys end up saying things like, " you missed, hold at his butt and six inches higher." IMO it is just so much easier to measure the miss in MOA then make the adjustments accordingly.

    Lots of other examples but hopefully this paints a bit of a better picture of my point.

    Regarding the actual hunting experience, yes one shot one kill is the goal and many times you only get one shot and the animal is gone. But I surely don't practice that way. I don't shoot groups but I do shoot until I hit POA to learn what needs to be learned from my error in range estimation, wind dope, etc.

    It is also my experience that with real LR shots, there is a much higher chance that if you do miss that you may be able to get a second shot. I see this with coyotes, rock chucks, ground squirrels, and deer from time to time. So understanding how to use your reticle to determine your miss error is very valuable. It is the very fastest way possible to get a second shot. I don't see that as a bad thing, to be able to get off a second shot if needed on a missed or even an animal that was hit the first time.

    Scot E.
     
  13. REDHEAD

    REDHEAD Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    251
    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    I feel the Holland reticle is entirely too cluttered . Love my TMR.:)
     
  14. sp6x6

    sp6x6 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,042
    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    I was just trying to show the constant ratio, and assign numbers to it.The ART reticule in discussion does this and has markings in both mil and moa in one of his designs, which is innovative I believe.