New here......Help me build a Tack Driver??

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by traks44, Nov 9, 2005.

  1. traks44

    traks44 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    56
    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2005
    well after spending the better part of a year shooting my fathers 6mm/284 and stretching every ounce of accuracy out of remington 7mm mag I was able to harvest my first big bull elk at 405 yards with a single shot from a 150 NBT handload. I have caught the bug of long range hunting and looking at building a 1000 yard elk gun. I plan on using McMillian stock, jewell trigger, hart 28 inch barrel #7, either a Nesika bay action or remington 700, and either a loopy or nightforce scope, My father has the 12-42x56 and its a litte more in power and heft than I want for this rifle. Anyway The only thing I cant decide on is caliber. I am set on a 7 mag of some sort, but as for which one I dont know. I have looked at the Lazzeroni, STW, Allen magnum, and others. Under the right conditions and shooter, which 7 mag is most capable of accuracy and power out to 1000 yards on elk. I plan on shooting 160 grain bullet either from lost river or barnes. Anyone with prooven horsepower rounds with great accuracy, or slower rounds with prooven kills. I want to know which 7mm are king, I am open to all opinions and really would like alot of input!

    I did a search and really couldnt find much on this topic.

    Thanks for your time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
     
  2. RDM416

    RDM416 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    700
    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2005
    Check out Kirby Allen (Fiftydriver) and the 7mm Allen mag he builds. You can get his info from the site and contact him directly, or ask questions on this site as he seems to monitor it frequently.
     

  3. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

    Messages:
    6,848
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2004
    Traks44,

    I am not so bold as to say my 7mm Allen Mag is the "King" of the 7mm rounds but combining the proper bullet with this round and chambering in the proper rifle will get you a 1K elk rifle easily.

    Please do not take offense to this but in my opinion, forget about the LRB bullets. I have yet to see them be consistant enough to provide what you will need for good terminal performance. At 1000 yards you will get pin hole wound channels and thats it.

    The Barnes is better terminally but again this bullet works on speed to open up properly. The Barnes bullets do not offer a BC value that will retain alot of velocity at long range. Combine that with the need for good velocity to expand and you will run into terminal performance issues at long range.

    As far as rounds go, all you list will work. In my opinion, the Lazzeroni is far overpriced for what you get in case quality. Performance is great but from what I have seen the case quality is not up to the +$2.00 per case price.

    The STW is a great round for sure. The 7mm RUM would be even better with a good heavy weight bullet. If your serious about long range, no matter what chambering you go with, take a hard look at the 200 gr ULD RBBT from Wildcat Bullets. It offers higher retained velocities and less wind drift then any other 7mm bullet that I know of.

    In my personal 7mm AM. Loaded to a VERY mild 3120 fps. I still have +2100 fps and right at 2000 ft/lbs of energy at 1000 yards. Combine that with a lead core bullet for good expansion and a sectional density of .354 and you can see that penetration will not be a problem.

    Top end velocity is around the 3250-3275 fps range with this chambering in a 30" barrel. In a 28" pipe you will loose roughly 60 fps is all, still 3200 fps easily with top loads.

    As far as your list of componants, If your able to consider the Nesika Bay receiver financially, get one. I assure you you will never be sorry for making that decision. I would personally recommend a McMillan A-5 stock and of course the Jewell trigger is a great choice as is the Rifles Basix triggers.

    Like the Nesika Bay receiver, if you are able to consider the Nightforce NXS scopes, GET ONE! I have the 3.5-15x50mm on my 7mm AM and just finished some testing at 988 yards on targets as small as 5" in diameter. These are great optical systems, you will never go wrong.

    If you go with a Leupold, get one of the Mk4 variables. Good scopes.

    DO not get caught up inthinking you need alot of magnification power. I would go no higher then the 5.5-22 if you go with a Nightforce or a 6.5-20 in the Leupold. For big game hunting there is no need for more and the higher power scopes only decrease field of view and have less vertical adjustment.

    Once you get used to it, 15x is more then enough to target animals as small as coyotes, an elk would certainly be easy to sight on at 1000 yards even with 15x. Still some like more power but I would not go over the 5.5-22 or the 6.5-20. Just personal opinion.

    I would like to come back to the bullets. Again, really all the chamberings you list will do what you want. Of the ones you list the 7mm AM offers the highest velocity potential with the best case quality. Above that though is the specific bullet selection.

    There may be no "king of the 7mm cases" but there is the 200 gr ULD RBBT and no matter what you shoot it out of, it offers the best ballistic potential of all the 7mm bullets offered today when you consider ballistic and terminal performance as well as accuracy potential.

    Whatever you choose, get a 1-7 or 1-8 twist barrel and give them a try, you will not be unhappy with the results. If fact they will amaze you at long range.

    Personally I would recommend a Lilja 1-7 3 groove barrel. These are the only barrels I use on my 7mm Allen Magnum rifles for my customers and my personal rifles.

    If you want to use a 160 gr bullet I would look at the 160 Accubond as well. It will perform better terminally at long range then the other two 160 gr bullets you list. On average will hold tighter groups as well.

    Most importantly, have someone that knows what they are doing build the rifle for you. THe rifle building is the most important aspect to getting what you want.

    If you want more information on my 7mm Allen Mag drop me an e-mail and I will give you all the data I have.

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  4. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,705
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2004
    Glad to see you have the right parts and pieces in mind and don't want to cut corners. Better to buy right then to find the right buy.

    The .284 bore is an awesome caliber and deserving of serious attention. However, I will say I like the .308's and .338's a tad better for 1k big game hunting. But, the .284's can and do kill waaayy out there.

    I have worked closely with any number of 7mm remmy's, a few 7 ultras, a few 7 stw's, one 7 WSM, several 7mm wildcats and even one boring (well that's what some people think).284 winchester. Of them all, I have two clear favorites. The first one is absolutely mind blowing for performance yet burns 10-15 grains LESS powder than a 7 ultra. It is a wildcat invented by my dear friend, 7mmrhb as he is called here. That also happens to be the name of his cartridge. He was the first guy I know of to take the 300 ultra mag case and have forming dies made from scratch to convert it to another caliber and shorten the overall length while lengthening the neck. He did this in 1999 when the ulras were hot off the press.
    It is similiar in shape I believe to the wildcat the John Burns uses on "Beyond Belief" which kills oh so nice.

    The 7mmrhb is capable of launching 140 grain bullets at 3500-3600 with 85 grains of powder!! It can push 160's at better than 3400! Truly astounding performance that vastly outdoes it's parent case based 7 ultra. ONe drawback to this cartridge is case prep (obviously) so it isn't for everyone. You must love brass bending until the wee hours of the night!

    My second favorite 7 is much easier to make and the reamer is already in the hands of Fiftydriver and the dies are simple to aquire. It is called a, well wait a minute, it doesn't really have a name! My uncle's rifle is stamped .284 BSM but I don't know if that is the name of the reamer. It was built by Fifty driver and is nothing more than a 7mm-270wsm with a super long throat for shooting 160 grain bullets seated way out to make use of all available case capacity. It is also designed around the Norma 270 wsm brass insead of the winchester brand. It must also be used as a single shot for a short action or be built on a long action with an altered follower.

    THis little beauty is launching 160 grain bullets at 3200 from a 25 inch barrel using only one grain more powder than my uncle's previous load in a 7 mm rem mag! The 7 rem was averaging 3000 fps and the 284 whatzitgonnabecalled gets 3200 with almost the same load!

    Both of these little cats are capable of cleanly killing elk and deer at a little over 1000 yards and have proven to be quite accurate thus far.
    They also have good to decent barrel life so you won't be afraid to practice with it which I believe is the most important factor in becoming lethal at 1k.



    Of course, Teddy killed elephants with a 7 mauser! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
     
  5. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

    Messages:
    6,848
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2004
    GG,

    I would agree with your comments and recommendations.

    One thing though, from what I understand, Burns was just using a STW with a custom designed throat. I do not follow his work all that much, kind of do my own playing as well /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif but I thought that is what he was using.

    On the 7mmrhb, how much was the 7mm RUM shortened in body length? Must be quite a bit to get an 85 gr powder capacity as my 257 AM based on the 338 RUM case is using 91.0 gr of 872.

    Is it comparible to the 300 Dakota in case length? I am using this for my Allen Xpress rounds and with the 6.5 mm AX I am using 90.0 gr 872 under the 140 gr bullets for 3320 fps. This is not a full blown load but its up there. He must be running some good pressures to get another 300 fps in basically the same case capacity, smokin!!

    Also, what barrel length is he using to get these velocity specs and what is the case life with the Rem brass?

    Not flaming at all, just curious about the specs he is using , great performance for sure.

    Finally, why not just use the 338 RUM case so the shoulder does not need to be set back as far?

    Just curious??

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  6. ss7mm

    ss7mm Writers Guild

    Messages:
    3,707
    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2005
    traks44:

    First of all, welcomd to LRH.

    You asked for opinions so here’s another one:

    You mentioned Nesika action, McMillan stock and night force scope. I agree with you there, as these are all great components for a long range gun. I would have to disagree with you on the bullets though. Along the lines of Kirby’s comments I would suggest you look strongly at the Wildcat 200 grain ULD RBBT bullet. I have used these on deer at 862 yards and elk at 690 yards and they are awesome. The retained velocity and energy at long ranges make for a fantastic long range killing machine. Shoot a heavy for caliber bullet in a quality built gun and you’ll never look back.

    I would stay away from the lighter bullets if you truly want a long range elk hammer. Launch the big Wildcat at about 3200-3250 fps and nothing at 1000 yards will withstand the impact. If you really want to see something interesting, run the numbers on the 200 grain Wildcat out to 2000 yards and you’ll be amazed at what it’ll do. The lighter bullets will look great at shorter ranges and will kill great at those shorter ranges but the big 200 will walk right on by them from about 700 yards or so, on out to as much as 2000 yards. Also remember that the big 200 grain Wildcat will buck the wind better than anything you can find out there.

    The 28” barrel will work but if you want to wring out everything possible from your new long range gun then I’d suggest you take a look at the 30” 3 groove from Lilja. If you’re gonna be packing it through the brush then something shorter will work but for a true long range hammer, I’d go with the 30”. I’ve got one and that sucker is a work of art. It’s a #8 contour with the heavy fluting.

    Kirby won’t say that his 7mm AM is the best 7mm around but I will tell you that when I decided to build my long range gun money was no object. We looked at every available component and every available chambering/bullet combination. I chose the 7mm AM and had it throated to seat the big 200 grain Wildcats way out and it shoots fantastic.

    If you’re interested in what something like you are talking about, component wise would look like, I’ve included a couple of pics of my 7mm AM that Kirby built. If I had it to do all over again I’d pick the same components, the same chambering, the same gunsmith and would shoot the same bullet. The choice is up to you but you said you wanted a 1000 yard elk hammer and I feel that this is the best there is in the 7mm caliber, bar none. I would call this round a “just barely cruising, 1000 yard elk round” that’ll go well beyond that easily. Run the number before you decide.

    As far as accuracy goes, this gun is shooting 1/4 moa using the fire form loads. I'll be working up full tilt loads soon, if the weather co-operates and the new bullets get here.

    By the way, where are you located? If you’re close enough we might be able to arrange to get together and let you shoot this one to see what you think. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  7. lerch

    lerch <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

    Messages:
    1,497
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2004
    The best advice I could give you Trak is to go with the 7mm Allen Mag.
    Me and a buddy of mine were the first people to get the famous 270 AM and we choose it simply because of its raw power and the ease of loading.
    In retrospect now I do see that the 7 allen would have been a little better ultra long range caliber, but I am not dissapointed at all in my 270.

    If you want the current ultimate long range hammer in 7mm then the choice is obvious, the 7mm Allen Mag

    I might be rebarreling to it in a year or so, depends on what the 185gr 277 will do.

    take it easy
    steve
     
  8. 7mmRHB

    7mmRHB Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    338
    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2005
    Fifty, the overall length is 2.555 with a 35 degree shoulder and .013 taper. It holds 94 grs of water up to the shoulder neck junction.The barrel is a 27" Shilen. 140gr bts w/80grs rl 22 runs at 3640 fps with accuracy under 1/2moa. Only 16.25 moa to 1k.Gun weighs 9.5 lbs. I think G G. has some pictures he could post of the forming process. I'm working on the parts right now to have you build me a fast twist version. Hope to be in contact with you about it soon 7mmrhb.
     
  9. 7mmRHB

    7mmRHB Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    338
    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2005
    Fifty, I have one set of 20 pcs of brass that I did the load development with that have been fired 9 times with no signs of case failure. The reason I shortened the brass was to be able to seat the bullet to the case neck junction and have it fit the magazine . It has the same capacity as the 7 STW in a short fat package,and I could use a standard magnum bolt face unlike the Dakota case. This was all done prior to any of the other Ultra mags. It certainly is nothing compared to your 7AM for performance but it's a nice 1000yard performer.
     
  10. traks44

    traks44 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    56
    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2005
    ss7mm, I am located in Pendlton and would love to be able to shoot your rifle sometime. Shoot me a PM when you plan on going or we can workout details later.

    I appreciate the bullet help and I am gonna look at those 200 grain bullets recommended. Anyway I was planning on a McMillian tactical stock, but I hadnt decided on a model. Its sounds like this 7mm AM is gonna be pretty hard to beat, because although extremly fast and powerful it sounds like many are having great accuracy as well. I appreciate all the info and would love to hear more.
     
  11. 7mmRHB

    7mmRHB Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    338
    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2005
    44, Lerch has it right if you want tack driving looooong range performance. you can't do better than the 7AM. In the mid range (1k) or less .it's hard to beat Uncle B's 7mmbsm short mag. Good luck with whatever you decide on.7mmrhb
     
  12. lerch

    lerch <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

    Messages:
    1,497
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2004
    i am really starting to hate alot of you guys /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
    just kidding

    so now i want a 7AM for ultra long range killing and i might want one of these short fat 7bsm's for something easily portable.
    lets see then I want a little 6br or something similiar for 500-800yd pdog slaughtering and then I might want a 50lb 338AM so i can shoot through a truck engine and the etc etc etc etc.......................

    why can't i just win the damn lottery

    take it easy
    steve
     
  13. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,705
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2004
    Here is the whole process of forming the 7mmrhb cartridge:
    [​IMG]



    Here is the 7mmrhb next to it's parent case, the 300 ultra:
    [​IMG]



    And here is the .284 bsm next to a fired 25-06 case:
    [​IMG]
     
  14. ss7mm

    ss7mm Writers Guild

    Messages:
    3,707
    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2005
    traks44:

    In reading your initial post about the lighter weight bullets and kind of reading between the lines about your comments on the 200 grain bullets let me say this.

    If you’re new to the long range hunting scene and have always shot 150 grain bullets as maximum weights in a 7mm you need to understand the design and concept of the heavy for caliber bullets.

    The Wildcats, or any other brand, that are designed for very long range are long, sleek, wind bucking, velocity retaining missles with before unheard of BC's. Old time 200 grain bullets, which were never available in 7mm, were round nosed, blunt, clumsy and shot like a rock. The new ULD RBBT’s or other dedicated long range bullets not only perform at very long range but also at reduced ranges under most conditions. You just need the horsepower to get the upper velocity levels from the heavy for caliber bullets. That's where the 7mm AM case comes into play.

    Here is a picture of a 200 grain Wildcat ULD RBBT beside a Nosler 160 grain Accubond, both in 7mm.
    [​IMG]

    Here is the 169.5 Wildcat 7mm and Nosler 160 Accubond flanked by the Wildcat 200 grain ULD RBBT’s for some more comparison.
    [​IMG]

    Good luck in your quest for the new long range rifle. The design and planning stages will keep you busy for quite a while.