new and trying to build

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by ds1304, Jul 11, 2009.

  1. ds1304

    ds1304 Active Member

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    I want a long range hunting rifle for Elk. If i buy a 700 Rem Mag 7MM SF can I just get the trigger work done and put on a Huskamaw scope and be good at 1000 yards. I already shoot well out to 600 yards with my 308. I am new to this site as well as long range hunting. I have only had my 308 for 7 months and have been shooting a lot with it. I cannot afford a lot of money for a quiality rifle, I am limited to what I have listed. Any help here would really be appreciated. I was planning on shooting the 168 VLD Berger bullet.
     
  2. trebark

    trebark Well-Known Member

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    ds1304:
    Here are my comments:

    Rifle:
    Rem700 SF. If this is the rifle that I think it is, with a varmint contour barrel (.82 diameter at the muzzle) with an HS Precision stock, it is a great platform from which to begin a long range rifle project. My suggestions would be to have the trigger tuned and have the action skim-coat bedded.

    Optics:
    Huskemaw optics are quality glass and can certainly be set-up for a 1k shot. there are quite a few good alternatives. Be sure to look at Sightron, Leupold and Bushnell. Just for kicks, look at Nightforce too.

    Be careful when you say "put a Huskemaw scope on it and be good". Depending on how much internal adjustment any scope has, you might need to set it up with a canted (rear higher than the front) base.

    Caliber:
    For the sake of this discussion, the conventional wisdom says you should have 1500lbs of energy to cleaning kill an elk (1000lbs for deer).

    7RemMag is a great cartridge, with the 168VLD traveling at 3000fps it has 1500lbs of energy at 550 yards. This will not reach your goal of a 1k shot.

    300WinMag with a 210VLD traveling 2700fps has 1499lbs of energy at 1k.

    Given this, I would suggest you choose something in the 30mag category.

    Other equipment you need to consider:
    Spotting scope
    Weather station
    Laser Range Finder (that can reach beyond 1k)

    Be sure to practice, practice, practice. A rifle may have the capability to reach waaaaay over there, but it's only as good as the guy on the trigger. Your 308 is a great practice rifle.

    Have fun!


     

  3. AJ Peacock

    AJ Peacock Well-Known Member

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    .280 fan gave you some very good info.

    I've been hunting with a 7mm Rem Mag for 30years and wouldn't shoot at an elk at 1000yds with it; everything would need to be perfect and in my experience that just doesn't happen.

    A 300Win Mag is a solid performer. If you are really intending on shooting 1000yds for Elk, I'd go with a 300 Ultra Mag if possible, it will best the Win Mag by 200fps.

    If money is tight, think about your range finding capabilities, a few yards error can cause a miss easily. The heavier cartridges (like the 300RUM) can cover up some smaller errors in wind reading and ranging.

    Good Luck,
    AJ
     
  4. woolecox

    woolecox Well-Known Member

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    I bought that very gun (Rem 700 7mm Mag Stainless Fluted) about 6 months ago. In it's factory form it does not group well enough for shooting out to 1000 yards. Not even 600 yards for that matter.

    I am in the process of doing a "build" on it. I have a stock ordered from HS Precision. I will replace the factory stock and bed the new one. I expect it will still need some accurizing to be a viable long range shooter and maybe even a new barrel. I did some work on the trigger but could not get the sear adjustment screw to turn. I have had a couple of more experienced smiths tell me the factory does that on purpose. And they say they are hard to take apart. The factory trigger is not bad but 4.5 lbs is as light as I can safely get it to pull. So it will probably need a new trigger too.

    Oh yeah, the above poster is right. My tables show the 168 VLD drops below 1500 ft/lbs of energy at around the 775 yard mark. But I think I can get that close. At least I have been able to so far.

    I am considering the same scope as you. But by the time I get through making this thing shoot well enough for long range shooting, I probably could have just bought a custom and saved a little money and a lot of time.

    Rem 7mm Mag is my favorite for an all around North American hunting cartridge so I intend to make it shoot right one way or another.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2009
  5. AJ Peacock

    AJ Peacock Well-Known Member

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    One other thing about the 7mm Rem Mag. I've been around 4 Remington 700's in 7RM. Everyone of them would shoot sub moa at long range with the right reloads after they were bedded and the trigger was lightened.

    AJ
     
  6. ds1304

    ds1304 Active Member

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    WOW, what a great site man, you guys are AWESOME. The feedback here is to cool. thanks for all the information and feedback from all. It is difficult for me to make a decision but I will and with the help from each of you I know I will have the perfect rifle when done. THANK YOU all of YOU
     
  7. Kevin

    Kevin Well-Known Member

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    You are going to have to have a little luck for that rifle to be "good" at a 1000. I want my rifle to be capable of much better than MOA. When you combine all the factors that go into hitting something at 1000 your rifle had better be really good to make up for all the other things that can add up to move the bullet off it's mark.

    To me the 7mag is fine for elk at a 1000, but everyone has to figure out what they are comfortable with as far as velocity and energy down range.

    If it were me, and I were on a tight budget I would go with a cheaper scope option. And put the money you will save into the rifle and more ammo for practice.
     
  8. kiwi3006

    kiwi3006 Well-Known Member

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    You will like the 7mm mag as a cartrige. I have one and have just switched over to the 168 berger. Using 73 gr ADI 2217/H1000 I get 3080 fps out of a 26 inch barrel. There are no ejector marks on the cases but I am getting close to max loads. This loads shoots 0.5 moa at 100 yds. I haven't had a chance to shoot groups at longer range.

    My ballsitic program shows 1528 ft/lbs at 800 yds with this load. I ran it at 3000 fps and it showed 1500 ft/lbs at 700 yds (.280fan said 1500 ft/lbs at 550 yds) not sure whose ballistic program is right!

    As Kevin said, there will be other things that limit your range before remaining energy does. To be able to consistently hit the kill zone on a deer you need to be able to put your shots inside a 6 inch circle (elk would be bigger, but there are not many here in NZ) so just keep moving back until you can't hit that target, I bet it will be before 1000 yds.

    I realise that the actual kill zone on a deer is bigger than 6 inches but the difference between shooting a nice relaxed shot off a bench versus a shot in the field where the rest is not quite perfect and the excitement is a bit higher will make up for the difference.

    Hope this helps, and I haven't taught you to suck eggs,

    Stu.
     
  9. kcebcj

    kcebcj Well-Known Member

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    280fan has good information except I think there is an error in the statement above. Not trying to pick a fight just want to be accurate. A Berger .308 210gr VLD Hunting bullet with a BC of .631 and a velocity of 2700 fps altitude 0 temp. 60 degrees drops below 1500 ft lb of energy crossing the 700 yard mark according to Exbal.

    At a 1000 yards the velocity is 1487 and the energy is 1031.

    In my opinion the 300 Win Mag is a very good elk rife out to about 800 yards when hunting above 4000 ft. To go farther the 300 RUM is a better choice.
     
  10. trebark

    trebark Well-Known Member

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    Jim (kcebcj):
    You are right.....I read my exbal chart incorrectly or I loaded some data incorrectly. When I ran the numbers again, I came up with the same results as you for the 300WinMag shooting the 210VLD at 2700fps.

    So I will amend my earlier statement and say that the 300RUM is the better choice as it shoots the 210VLD at 3000fps with 1470lbs of energy at 900.

    Two other notes....

    In terms of accuracy, someone posted the accuracy requirement. I always follow the rule of thumb that says your field accuracy is only half as good as your bench accuracy. This means if your rifle shoots .5 MOA on the bench, you're going to get 1moa in the field (given all the other factors - less than solid rest, adrenaline pumping....etc). That means, for long range shooting, I would accept no less than .5moa for a rifle that I wanted to shoot 1k at an elk.

    Also, I agree with woolecox...if the rifle we're discussing does not have the HS Precision stock already on it, then I would not go that route. I would find a less expensive rifle and build it up from there. I've gone this route twice.....

    This started out as a Rem700SPS and cost ~$1300 when complete..... http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f53/my-308-1k-rifle-updated-field-pics-43510/

    This one started life as a Rem700 Mountain Rifle and cost ~$2000 when done... http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f53/my-280-updated-32771/


     
  11. fishonnw

    fishonnw Member

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    I am new to this site as well, however I have gone through some rifles for general hunting. Also I will state that I am not a long range hunter, and mentioned in a different post that I have only shot animals to 400 yards. With all that said I do have an opinion on this subject.

    You are buying a factory rifle. It has been my experience that not all factory rifles will shoot to what you need. Some rifles I have owned are not what I consider acceptable. When I buy a new factory rifle I also buy three boxes of quality ammo. If it will not shoot under and inch all the time I sell. It just seems it will take alot of effort to make it shoot. Some guns just shoot good, some shoot not so good.

    So what I am getting at don't be married to the rifle you are buying unless this is custom built with an accurracy guarantee. It may take a few to get a good one, or you could get one on the first try.

    Just my two cents. Shane
     
  12. BH Hunter

    BH Hunter Well-Known Member

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    Those guys at The Best of the West sure knock a lot of stuff over way out there w/ a 7 mag..
     
  13. Long Time Long Ranger

    Long Time Long Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I agree with AJ. I have at least fifteen 7mm rifles and would not even consider one for long range elk. Everything has just got to be perfect and in the real world hunting situations are how they develop and not perfect. Killing elk has nothing to do with minimal foot pounds from a ballistics chart that I have found. It just has to do with how well the caliber kills. The very minimum I would consider would be a big 30. But if your going to get a new rifle why not get the best and not fool with something that may be minimal or marginal. I am a retired engineer and just think to logical I guess but that is something I could never understand. If a guy is going to spend the money for a new rig why not get the best instead of something that is marginal in some situations and will limit your shots.

    One of you may see me out with something like my favorite 264 STW or something on elk and think I don't practice what I preach. I guess the answer is I have over a hundred rifles in all calibers and love to shoot all of them. Could I kill an elk with that 264 stw at a 1000 yards, I guarantee I could and I would wait for the shot to do it. Would it be the best choice, no. But I am not saving my money for one rifle and I have killed so many elk I don't care if the right shot happens or not. I will just wait till next time. The average guy can't do that and needs that one rifle that will make any shot at any time and be the best at it.

    There is a reason for caliber minimums in Africa for large animals. Because profesional hunters know the effects of large calibers on game. They can crush dangerous game to the ground instead of toying with them.

    Most times a small caliber weapon will work but there are those times when animals will be lost, particularly at long range. The more experience a guy gets the more he realizes that is fact and not opinion.

    Probably none of this makes any sense but at least I tried.
     
  14. woolecox

    woolecox Well-Known Member

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    I respectfully disagree Sir. Killing anything, elk included, has everything to with the kinetic energy delivered at a given range for a given projectile. This can be illustrated in ballistic tables as well as real world applications.

    For instance, an average load for a 223 Rem shooting a 55 gr. Nosler will deliver less energy at 300 yards than a 7mm Rem Mag shooting a 168 gr. VLD. And through common sense and experience we all know the 7mm will have the most killing power in the above example. That is solely attributed to energy.

    Pick any bullet and that bullet will perform differently at different ranges due to loss of velocity and energy. All major hunting bullet manufacturers have recommended minimum velocity/energy levels in order for their bullets to perform adequately. Read expand. Can you kill with less? Sure! If you hit it right. Recovery may be longer.

    What kind of engineer did you say you where? Just kidding man. :) You make a good point.