Need some advice

I find it kind funny, and sad at the same time, that THE formula to accuracy is not being advocated.

The Three B's.

1. Barrels
2. Bullets
3. Brass

In the above order!

I've thought today a little bit about why this is. Everybody knows the 3B's, it's in every reloading manual and on every accuracy forum. So why are people so quick to suggest not using this particular die, or using golf tee's and water to find internal volume, or weigh brass and organize into little segregated piles, and suggesting the purchase of inexpensive measuring tools.
The answer lies in not wanting to hear the truth; the truth being the three B's. When some asks: "What can I do to not group two feet at a gazillion yards?" The answer: "Buy a better barrel" is not what one wants to hear. The question: "what can I do to my load (read bullet here) to shoot under an inch?" does not want the answer "go buy five different powders and five different bullets and experiment". However, this is the truth of the matter.
Imagine for a second perfect brass, and I mean perfect. Then Image the perfect load assembled with all the perfect tools and gadgets, one's that "flatline" on concentricity gages and weigh exactly the same weight. Now shoot them down a factory barrel, you choose which one, I'm not here to be bashing. Your results will be mediocre.
So, start with your barrel. Instead of buying this fancy tool, and that accuracy gage, and those premium brass, invest your money in a top of the line barrel and you will be amazed. They just shoot, even with poor loads.
Secondly, experiment with many load combinations. Not just one bullet and a couple of powders, I mean really play until you find a combination that is suited to your barrel. While reloading, don't convince yourself that it's not shooting because of your brass prep or reloading procedure. It's simply that you haven't found the right bullet and powder combination.
Finally, once you're shooting .2's and .3's at 100, and have no vertical at 300 yards, then start fiddling with the little stuff. You may or may not notice a difference depending on the quality of brass you started with. The brass component of the three B's is more a matter of maintenance, keeping them clean, to length, and annealed.

Be happy and satisfied with how your rifle is shooting. Have fun, shoot, reload, enjoy yourself, and take a youngster along with you. Don't expect miracles from factory fodder, be content. The money you spend on all the gadgets is wasteful (trust me I have them all). If you're truly, and I mean truly unsatisfied with your results, then go out and buy a top of the line barrel.

Very well stated, IN MOST CASES! ALL factory barrels are NOT junk. I have seen, and own, a few barrels that prove otherwise. I.E. my .308 VTR, totally factory, with handloads it consistently shoots 0.089" - 0.25" @ 100 yds.

AND while buying five different powders and five different bullets and expirimenting is the best way to find out exactly the hows/whats of accuracy in YOUR particular gun, this again is not always true. I.E. my .308 VTR again. I checked my COAL and distance to rifling, did some research on bullets, and tried 2 different powders. My SECOND 4-SHOT GROUP WAS 0.25". Doing your homework pays off. I have had similar expiriences with other rifles also.

While putting in your legwork will pay off in the best groups possible, it is not unreasonable to believe that doing your homework will considerably shorten your actual time involved (not to mention cheaper).

Very, very well stated as a general rule. I'm glad this was mentioned, at least as a reality check.

Hope I didn't tick anybody off lol. :D
 
2003, i'm not going to argue with what you've said, but, the reason no one is suggesting "the 3 B's" is because in his original statement he said he has a custom rifle and uses quality components.
 
just to clarify i am mostly concerned about a custom rifle ..mine is a ..300 dakota with a match chamber and it has a 27 inch krieger barrel on it it sits in a manners T4-A stock the action is a rem 700 that is fully worked and bedded and the scope is a leupy mark 4 8.5-25x50 mounted in ken farrell fg force matched rings and 20 moa base.

i was also inquirng about the neck turning because i figure if im gonna buy the equipment i might as well use it when loading for my factory rifles as well if it would benifit them. thanks for the replies guys i am learning from you as i have since i joined this site
 
One of the tools I recently purchased, and use quite a bit is the Sinclair Case Neck Sorting tool. Very fast and easy with accurate results. Here is the link.

Welcome to Sinclair International's Online Store

I also purchased an RCBS Casemaster tool but found it harder to use. I'm all thumbs when I try to use it. I have huge hands though! I think I would try the Sinclair Concentricity Gauge, everyone says it's easy to use.

Welcome to Sinclair International's Online Store

Another item that has helped a lot is a book by Glen Zediker titled Handloading for Competition, making the target smaller. This is the perfect book for the guy or gal who has been reloading for a few years but wants to take things to the next level.

Hope this helps.
 
Hornady is comming out with a tool that they SAY will not only MEASURE loaded cartridge concentricty (runout), but CORRECT IT as well.

It is not available, but if it does that - I WANT ONE.

Lets all remember ONE THING....ENJOY your hobby. Lets face it, we are using the finest shooting products available to mankind. We have the best solvents, the best powders, primers, projectiles, measuring equipment...I mean it can drive me nuts if I let it.
THEN I remember why I reload - I LOVE TO SHOOT.

So enjoy, one day you'll be too old, fat, and stupid to even read your mic!
 
Is leaving KROIL in your barrel harmful? I have had it in my barrel for about 2 weks now, waiting for all my new toys to come in and get set up.
 
Buy a Darrell Holland Case neck mike, sponsor here. One of the best at very reasonable prices. Measure your brass before you go to turning though. You might find that you do not need to do that.

What is the diameter after firing?

How much are your dies squeezing the neck down? if over .04/5 or so on a loaded round, that is pretty tight and too much neck tension will open groups up. Most guys are shooting for around .02-.03 on a magazine gun and .015 -.02 on a single shot.

James Carstenson at JLC precision will convert any die to neck bushings for around $45 and two week turn around. He is listed under the tools section at www.6mmbr.com

What is the loaded round diameter?

How much variance are you getting around the necks and from case to case.

Unless there is a .002 or more variance in brass neck dimension, might not want to waste the time. Shoot some groups with mixed dimension brass and see how it shoots.

IMO neck turning cases for a real "factory" chamber to set in a way oversize neck (factory) is more often a "feel good" issue that has no real positive results. Neck turning is to center the round in the neck and give consistent neck tension, if the factory chamber is .008 over the loaded round, it just sets on the bottom and is not centered, so it might make the situation worse depending how much is taken off.

Cases work harden (not at the same either) after 3-4 firings so there goes your neck tension unless you anneal. Only real option after that is to use machinest pin guages and sort cases by inside neck diameter to insure uniform tension. Been there and done that, and it is a pain in the butt but highly effective. I just anneal now.

You say you have a "match" chamber, is that min SAAMI or even tight neck? You need to know. Most of the time that means min SAAMI and no neck turn.

I prefer the K&M neck turner as it is the only one with the donut cutter carbide mandrel. Joel Pendegraf on BR central sells the neatest holder ($40) for it and that helps cuts down heat which is the enemy of neck turning and make it much easier to hold.

$25 B&D cordless screwdriver is the best tool to hold and turn the cases. No more than 180 RPM. Sinclair sells the adapters to fit.

Buy the Hornady comparators and learn to use them to measure seating depths and how to touch the lands. Seating depth has more to do with accuracy than a lot of the other things discussed. This should be the next step after determining the powder charge. if a mag gun, I start my load development at max COAL for the mag, and work back in .005 increments after I find the powder charge. That way, you only have one way to go. You may or may not be anywhere near the lands on a mag gun.

Go with Forester/Redding dies if possible.

Weighing brass- I have gone full circle. I have done it weighing to the .01 grain and now just look for the "anomoly"cases and use a 1 grain variance factor. Tell me, what variance are you weighing anyway? Is it in the neck, case head, sides or where? No one can tell. Now the purests sort cases by H2O volume which is a whole nuther issue.

Best advice is to go slow and be sure. Sinclair sells a precision reloading video, buy it and watch it along with reading the Zydeker book before you go buying a lot of stuff and doing things that might not work.


BH
 
Make no mistake I know nothing on this subject. Like you I am new to this. I also read alot and have never reloaded my self. But what most of the senior members tell me, and other newbie is buy your dies from Hornday unless you are using competition dies.
 
Here your go:

1- Trim cases to uniform length
2- Neck turn case necks to ONLY remove the high spots. In a non tight
neck chamber cutting the necks more is a waist of time.
3- Weigh cases & sort
4- Weigh bullets & sort
5- Full length size (if new brass)
6- Uniform primer pockets
7- Champher case mouths (don't use a VLD cutter unless your using VLD bullets as the angle of VLDs is not the same as standard bullets)
8 - Prime cases
9- Charge cases (to within 1/10 grain each)
10- Seat bullets
11- Check bullet runout with concentricity gauge.

You can buy a concentricity gauge and dial indicator from either Sinclair or Redding.

RCBS just re-tooled their factory and their tolerances are very good. Your dies will be date stamped. If they are 9/08 or later you're good.

Invest in an Redding micrometer seating die & a bushing neck die. They can fill you in on the details.

You don't need a "chamber gauge" it won't tell you any thing other that that the chamber was cut to within SAMI specs. You do need a COAL gauge to determine the overall cartridge length from the case base to the contact point of the bullet ogive and the barrel lands. You will have to experiment with seating depths in .005 plus and minus (bullet ogive to land contact) to determined what works best as far as accuracy for your gun. Nuf sed
 
Why would you leave KROIL in your barrel? It is normally only used to remove residual fouling from molybendum disulfied coated bullets. It is strong and could possibly etch the barrel leading to future copper fouling if the barrel is chrome moly. If it is stainless you may be safe but I would not leave it in.
 
Ackley Man,
I would full length resize before you trim to length, as the length will change during the resizing.
 
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