NEED HELP FROM YOU SHOOTERS OUT THERE!

[sniperecho]

Here is a copy of the email that I sent the Leupold tech about my problem. Any advice you guys can give me is greatly appreciated.



Thanks for getting back with me. Let me give you the abridged version of my test findings. I used a brand new set of 30mm rings and two types of ammo today. I first tested a Tasco 10-40x50mm scope and fired 5 round groups of both ammo types. I then used the new rings and my Leupold scope and again fired 5 round groups of both ammo types. The scopes performed comparably thereby eliminating that variable. Ammo types were also consistent. As I realize this releases you from helping me further.......I was wondering if you would do me the favor of giving your expert opinion on the following......the groups behaved in an odd fashion. I would get (at 200 yards from a sandbag) 4 and 1/2 inch groups. Two shots would be right next to one another and another two shots would be 4 inches away right next to one another with the last shot centered in between the two groups. Vertical and horizontal stringing was apparent leading me to believe something is still shifting. The only variable left is my base system. This is a Leupold two piece base (STD). I had to mount the rear base with the windage screws to the front as it interfered with the bolt handle. The package says it will fit both long action and short action Rem 700 rifles. Is this where my problem lies? Should I not have reversed the rear base? I have heard of your reversible bases but reading the packaging leads me to believe that since this base was made for LA and SA both it is reversible. Am I mistaken? I have ordered a LA one piece base to test next. Any advice or help you can give is greatly appreciated. I can fax copies of my test targets to you for better clarification if you so desire. I know the rifle to be capable of less than 2 inch groups at 200 yards and all I am getting lately are 4 inch groups usually with the aforementioned pattern of two shots next to one another, another two shots next to one another but 4 inches from the other group and the final shot in between the two. Have you heard of this problem before? Could the bases be my problem? For your info the rifle is a Rem700 PSS heavy barrel with 2 pound trigger in .300 Win Mag. Ammo was Rem Nosler Ballistic Tip, Winchester Ballistic Silvertip, and Federal Premium Soft Point. 180, 180, and 200 grains respectively. Hope to hear from you soon......PLEASE HELP!

Yours truly......Chris Jones-Delaware Firearms Sales

 

[milanuk]

Well, I'm no expert, unlike some of the other guys here, but I'd make the following observations:

If all the scopes, and all the ammo you try perform pretty much the same way, they're probably not the problem. I think you already figured that out.

If there is a problem w/ the bases, I think which way the bases sit is the least of your worries. I've used the bases like that several times, mainly in an effort to move the scope forward for more eye-relief. Never had an problems. I'd be more concerned w/ whether the base screws are tight. Then I'd make sure that the windage screws on the rear base are tight, and that the front ring pivots in *tight* into the front dovetail. I've had some really bizarre groups from a gun where the front ring didn't get really tight in the front doevetail. It basically turned w/ minimal finger pressure, rather than needing a ring wrench or dowel of some sort.

Next I'd check that the action screws are snug. No need to gorilla them, but they do need to be fairly snug. There may be something funky in the bedding.

Have you shot a magnum before? You say that you know the gun should be capable of 2" groups @ 200yds; is this from you shooting it, or someone else, or just your gut feeling? If you aren't experienced w/ shooting guns that recoil heavily, the shooter can be the real wildcard. I know that I am

If all else fails, enlist the help of a friend, preferably one w/ experience shooting magnums, and have them try it, just to make sure it isn't you.

HTH,

Monte

 

[BountyHunter]

You could have several things causing problems, such as bedding not solid, loose bases, vertical can come from light conditions and too little powder for load. Lastly "shooter" induced error. Need more than one test to confirm either. Try coming up .1-.2 on powder on load and have someone with you that is comfortable shooting the magnums if you are not sure. Before check all screws etc.

Good luck

 

[bgordon]

You made no mention of exactly what position you used to do the shooting.
I do know that altering anything in your stance or hold can effect the shots in the manner you have mentioned. It is pretty easy to verify for yourself. Take a nice tack driving varmint rig. Most of them are good for 1/2 moa out till the bullet gets blown around. On a nice calm evening, shoot a 5 shot group at 200 using a firm grip on the pistol grip portion of the stock and pull the rifle tight in to you. Try to be really consistent on the amount of pressure placed upon the rifle, but do a nice tight grip. If possible shoot from the prone position with a front rest rather than from a bench. Let the rifle cool and repeat the same test but using as little pressure on the rifle as possible. Using a bipod up front and a rice sock to support the butt, I can normally center the crosshairs andpull the trigger without even touching the rifle at all.
It might take several sets of doing both these methods but you will find quite a difference in the group center ans well as the size of the groups.
A loose position one shot and a tight position the next shot will give groups like you have described.
Even if the problem doesn't go away you will have removed one possible reason.

BTW, a rice sock is a superb thing to support the rear of the rifle. You simply take a decently tight weave sock and fill it about half full of rice and tie off the end to give you a rear rest which will stay rock solid and which is usable under widely differing conditions. Until making up a rice bag I used a rear leather rabbit ear bag filled with shot. Too cumbersome and not user friendly. I can shoot just as accurately with a rice bag and much more rapidly. You squeeze the rice bag with your off hand sort of like squeezing a woman's breast. Be gentle and the crosshairs will come right down on target. Military snipers are taught this method and use it at longer yardages than you or I are ever likely to shoot at.