Need a bullet expert

[lloydsmale]

i agree george. the same year we tested all the barnes bulles i also had my 7mag loaded up with 140 lead free noslers. that load knocked the cork out of every deer i shot with it. Never recovered a bullet as they were all pass throughs but internal damage was massive. Ive also come to like the 180tsx in my 300wby. I had one bad experience with the first deer i shot and came to some conclusions a bit to hastely. I probably shot 20 deer since with that gun and bullet and it to knocks the cork out of deer. I dont think it does anything a good cup and core bullet wouldnt do in that gun but the problem lies in that its a finiky gun and shoots 5 shot 3/4 inch groups with that bullet and anything else ive tried in it is easily double that.

No hackles, we are exchanging information, after all. I have shot in excess of 1000 head of game and witnessed the shooting of a couple of thousand more. I have come to the conclusion that bullet design has a vast influence on how a bullet will behave when it meets the target, whatever the target may be.

Extreme example: One cannot expect the same behaviour from a solid bullet as what one will get from a match hollow point of the same weight and caliber, even though both are jacketed lead core bullets. There are obvious design differences, although they are made from the same materials.

More realistic example: One cannot get the same behaviour from a match hollow point and a partition style bullet, even when they are both jacketed lead core bullets. Once again, the materials are similar but the designs are different.

Another example: Will a jacketed lead core flat base bullet and a jacketed lead core boattail behave the same over a trajectory to 300? Design differences will ensure they do not.

Why then does the perception exist that all copper monos are the same? Surely design differences can exist between makes, that will result in different external and terminal ballistics.

Just as one should not assume that all jacketed lead core bullets behave in the same manner, so one must not assume that all copper monos behave in the same manner.

Question: How many copper monos are there in 69gr in 6mm/.243" caliber?

 

[north of 53]

[

Testing, evaluating & identifying a one size fits all projectile is going to be a challenge. Which is why I shoot 3 different 6mm's from .243 to 6-284, all with different bullets suited for a specific task.

Can it be done? Sure, as most of the posters here prove, but there is ALWAYS a trade off, you have to give this to get that.



One of the first things you need to learn is, don't over think this. The best gun for the job is always the one you have with you. The best bullet for the job is the one you feel good with and know where its going. The perfect gun or perfect bullet sitting at home or the bullet your friends or others say is perfect but you don't have confidence in , are not the tools for the job.
Where you put what you put is far more important that what you put where you put it. Just get out and shoot if you are going to let everyone else tell what bullet to use and what gun to use you will always be a second rate hunter or shooter. Its ok to learn from others but in the end it has to be you that pulls the trigger

 

[Outlaw6.0]

got to ask why you quit using cup and core 100s. Ive never lost a deer shot with one. On the other hand the .257 80 grain barnes was the worse offender of all the barnes bullet in punching through with very little damage of all the bullets weve tested so far. Even the 100s which didnt do great did a heck of alot better then the 80s. these were shot out of two differnt 2506s and two 257wbys. Use what you want but no more small caliber x bullets for this guy.

I never lost one either I wasn't trying to imply any negatives, only that my particular needs have expanded to the point where the heavy cup & core bullets were marginal for what I needed them to do. Mainly much higher velocity than they were originally intended. I can't speak to your specific issue with the 80 grain Barnes however, most of the failures I read about & see stem from what you are stating. Someone sticks a high velocity light for caliber Barnes in the ribs of an animal. You may have better luck with the TTSX but in my experience, the TSX was not designed to be shot into the ribs. Hit some bone next time, you might be surprised.

[

Testing, evaluating & identifying a one size fits all projectile is going to be a challenge. Which is why I shoot 3 different 6mm's from .243 to 6-284, all with different bullets suited for a specific task.

Can it be done? Sure, as most of the posters here prove, but there is ALWAYS a trade off, you have to give this to get that.



One of the first things you need to learn is, don't over think this. The best gun for the job is always the one you have with you. The best bullet for the job is the one you feel good with and know where its going. The perfect gun or perfect bullet sitting at home or the bullet your friends or others say is perfect but you don't have confidence in , are not the tools for the job.
Where you put what you put is far more important that what you put where you put it. Just get out and shoot if you are going to let everyone else tell what bullet to use and what gun to use you will always be a second rate hunter or shooter. Its ok to learn from others but in the end it has to be you that pulls the trigger

Were you addressing the OP or me? There is/was no over thinking on my part, I learned that there is no such thing as a do everything perfectly bullet. As to your statement Where you put what, that work, for small big game. I agree that confidence is paramount, but lets throw a little more realism into the mix. A junk bullet is a junk bullet is a junk bullet no matter where you put it, especiallly as the weight of your intended game goes up.

I was simply trying to convey to the OP to do his due dilligence, question everything & find out for himself what works while sharing some of my experience as to why I no longer chase the fantasy of a one setup does all.


t

 

[north of 53]

Well Outlaw 6.0 I sure am sorry and must apologies I had no idea that the game down south was so much bigger and harder to kill than the little stuff we have up here in Northern Canada. I stand corrected by all means spend your time and money getting it just right and don't wast your time actually shooting.
After all what would we know up here we never get to shoot big game like moose or elk or bears we just like to pet them as they walk around my back yard.

To the OP you do what ever you want but in the end you only have to answer to you so do what feels right to you . Just sift through all the BS and you will figure it out I am sure.

 

[Outlaw6.0]

Well Outlaw 6.0 I sure am sorry and must apologies I had no idea that the game down south was so much bigger and harder to kill than the little stuff we have up here in Northern Canada. I stand corrected by all means spend your time and money getting it just right and don't wast your time actually shooting.
After all what would we know up here we never get to shoot big game like moose or elk or bears we just like to pet them as they walk around my back yard.

To the OP you do what ever you want but in the end you only have to answer to you so do what feels right to you . Just sift through all the BS and you will figure it out I am sure.

Heaven forbid I have an opinion that differs from yours. Suck it up. You have no idea how much time I spend shooting, as most of us have learned assumption is the mother of all F- ups. I must has misunderstood that forums were implemented for discussion & debate...

I'm out.


t

 

[17Fireball]

Hey OP here...

Here are some thoughts...

I'm enjoying this thread very much hearing everyone's different perspectives (please no arguing, though, don't enjoy that...we are all on the same team).

I do agree that in the end I have to pick the bullet. However, I kinda feel it is responsible to get input from others to hear about their experiences to guide my journey. I just do not shoot enough animals to have the kind of experience I'd like to be able to know how things perform.

I would appreciate guys sharing the actual pelt damage of coyotes with whatever bullet they used. I am getting the feeling nobody has killed a coyote with a .243.

So far I am leaning towards the Hornady 87 bthp but I am starting to get interested in the amax but guess I would need the 1:8 twist for that bullet instead of the 1:9.25 twist.

 

[Outlaw6.0]

OP, my bad for diverting you thread arguing over nearly nothing. The BTHP should do pretty well, you will have to test the A-Max for stability or use a calculator:

JBM - Calculations - Stability


I would opt for more weight due to increased SD & decreased wind drift. They should also aid with an increased margin for error should you hit bone. A well placed 87grain BTHP will kill'em deader than dead no doubt. It's the not so good hits we need the extra oomph.

Choose a bullet you gun likes & shoot the Chit out of it.


t

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Well Outlaw 6.0 I sure am sorry and must apologies I had no idea that the game down south was so much bigger and harder to kill than the little stuff we have up here in Northern Canada. I stand corrected by all means spend your time and money getting it just right and don't wast your time actually shooting.
After all what would we know up here we never get to shoot big game like moose or elk or bears we just like to pet them as they walk around my back yard.

To the OP you do what ever you want but in the end you only have to answer to you so do what feels right to you . Just sift through all the BS and you will figure it out I am sure.

My, my, my.... A little cabin fever setting in? I don't think any offense was intended eh. Just sharing some experience with the rest of us and the OP.


Now, where were we.....

 

[MontanaRifleman]

The OP is shooting ground hogs, coyotes and deer out to 250 yds and would like minimal meat and fur damage.

What works for a groundhog may not work well for a deer, but works well for a deer will work for a groundhog, so really, we have to pick the bullet for the deer.

Of the bullets mentioned, I think the GS HV 69 is the best but probably the most costly per bullet. My other 2 choices would be the CE 88 HPBT STD or the 90 gr E-Tip.

Based on my limited experience with CE bullets, they are very accurate and easy to load for. Both they and the GS bullets, being bore riders, slide through the tube easier than other conventional bullets and get a little better velocity. E-Tips are tough bullets with good squarish frontal expansion. I've retrieved a couple from the dirt @ 400 and 500 yds.

So take your pick. Most bullets will do the job, but they wont all do it the same. Small caliber cup and core bullets will certainly do more meat and fur damage at high velocities but will cost less per unit.

You may have to pay a little more for your bullets if you want exacting performance.

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/243069HV082.html

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=MTH_F05

http://www.nosler.com/Bullets/E-Tip-Lead-Free.aspx

 

[Gerard Schultz]

Note that the Miller Stability calculation works ok with lead core bullets. It is not accurate for copper monos or hollow point bullets of any type of manufacture. Combine copper mono, boat tail and hollow point and it is completely off.

A good stability calculator for copper monos is the one done by McCoy and it is available at Border Barrels Barrel Twist form For copper mono hollow point bullets, use a specific gravity of 8.9 where it asks for it.

 

[lloydsmale]

problem with that is i dont shoot deer in there shoulders or any other big bone. I shoot deer for meat and dont want to ruin it. By the way it was ttsx bullets i used.

I never lost one either I wasn't trying to imply any negatives, only that my particular needs have expanded to the point where the heavy cup & core bullets were marginal for what I needed them to do. Mainly much higher velocity than they were originally intended. I can't speak to your specific issue with the 80 grain Barnes however, most of the failures I read about & see stem from what you are stating. Someone sticks a high velocity light for caliber Barnes in the ribs of an animal. You may have better luck with the TTSX but in my experience, the TSX was not designed to be shot into the ribs. Hit some bone next time, you might be surprise


t

 

[lloydsmale]

I have and used 100s for that too. Not because they would cause less pelt damage which in fact they will. I never kept pelts. We pretty much shoot them and let them lay. Problem with a match bullet like an amax is it might pensil through one time and cause no pelt damage and the next time it might blow a hole you can put your fist through. If it were solely for coyotes and i wanted minimum damage then i might look at a 100 grain tsx. Id about bet it would whistle through like a fmj bullet on something as light as a coyote. As to varmits, when i use my 6mm for shooting them i like to use the same cup and core 100s as i do hunting. They may not be as explosive or flat shooting as a dedicated varmit bullet in the 243/6mm but they get the job done and the main reason i like to use 100s in that situation is it gets me used to the trajectory of the gun and ammo that im going to be using in deer season. Makes for a bit better practice. Also ive found that out past 300 yards the 100s buck wind much better and once you get your drop down its actually easier to hit with them. By the way montana hunter the original poster said varmits, coyotes and whitetail deer. For a bullet that will efficiently take all three the 100s are the way to go with maybe the addition of the 95 grain bt which would also be a fine bullet.

Hey OP here...

Here are some thoughts...

I'm enjoying this thread very much hearing everyone's different perspectives (please no arguing, though, don't enjoy that...we are all on the same team).

I do agree that in the end I have to pick the bullet. However, I kinda feel it is responsible to get input from others to hear about their experiences to guide my journey. I just do not shoot enough animals to have the kind of experience I'd like to be able to know how things perform.

I would appreciate guys sharing the actual pelt damage of coyotes with whatever bullet they used. I am getting the feeling nobody has killed a coyote with a .243.

So far I am leaning towards the Hornady 87 bthp but I am starting to get interested in the amax but guess I would need the 1:8 twist for that bullet instead of the 1:9.25 twist.

 

[Outlaw6.0]

Note that the Miller Stability calculation works ok with lead core bullets. It is not accurate for copper monos or hollow point bullets of any type of manufacture. Combine copper mono, boat tail and hollow point and it is completely off.

A good stability calculator for copper monos is the one done by McCoy and it is available at Border Barrels Barrel Twist form For copper mono hollow point bullets, use a specific gravity of 8.9 where it asks for it.

Thank you for sharing, I had not heard of the McCoy calculator. I will play around with that a little bit.


t

 

[Outlaw6.0]

problem with that is i dont shoot deer in there shoulders or any other big bone. I shoot deer for meat and dont want to ruin it. By the way it was ttsx bullets i used.

Different strokes & i'm fine with that.

If I recall correctly, I do remember an article about some Barnes having an improper temper or something-or-other on a particular lot of bullets, basically making them harder than they were designed to be & viola! you basically have an FMJ... It sucks to hear that you had poor performance, I've taken & spotted dozens of game taken with Barnes, I have a lot of faith in Mono's.

I feel that we are still in the pursuit for the perfect bullet. Like alll man made things, they will all experience a failure at some point in time.




t