Necks Moving Forward During Reloading

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by tgh97531, May 31, 2010.

  1. tgh97531

    tgh97531 Member

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    Full length resized once fired Winchester 7WSM brass, length to shoulder increases after full length resizing? Has anybody else had this problem of cases not being able to chamber after full length resizing?

    Picked up a Howa 7WSM as project gun. Purchased 60 rounds of Winchester 7WSM 150 grain ammo and a set of full length Hornady 7WSM reloading dies. I shot the Winchester ammo with expected results, shot two to three inch groups, last group surprised me at 1.25”. Deprimed the once shot brass with a RCBS universal deprimer. Cleaned brass in Lyman tumbler. Lubed the cases. Lubed the inside of the neck with graphite. Set up the die as per directions with Hornady die just about touching the shell holder. Resized case with degree of difficulty, checked case length which was 2.1” shoulder moved forward .003 to .004 inches. Tried a number of different options, backed die way out, pulled off the expander with same results. The Winchester ammo cambers Ok as does Federal ammo. Neck moves forward instead of back? I just do not get it?
     
  2. jimbires

    jimbires Well-Known Member

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  3. trueblue

    trueblue Well-Known Member

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    When you FL resize, it is pushing the case body in, changing your OAL, which is pushing the shoulder/ neck forward. Just screw your die down in order to bump the shoulder back, then trim the neck if you need to for your chamber length.
     
  4. Bravo 4

    Bravo 4 Well-Known Member

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    What they said. You aren't touching the shoulder and need to screw the die in more till the brass chambers. Just don't over do it. I will set the die to bump the shoulder back enough that I can slightly feel the brass headspacing in the chamber. Then set my die there and leave it. Customize it to that specific rifle's chamber.
     
  5. woods

    woods Well-Known Member

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    Think of it like a baloon, when you start sizing the case body it will squeeze it like a baloon and push the shoulder out.

    Like the others said, you need to adjust your die further in so that it sizes the case body AND contacts the shoulder to push it back.
     
  6. tgh97531

    tgh97531 Member

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    It is still bumping the shoulder forward. I adjusted die all the way down, shoulder is .003" forward and cannot close bolt on case. I will wait on Hornady to send replacement die.
    Thanks
     
  7. woods

    woods Well-Known Member

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    I had this happen to me one time. Have a friend in a machine shop and he took a 1/4" off the bottom of the die. Works great now.

    You can also take a few thousands off the top of the shell holder with a grinder, files won't work because it is hardened metal.
     
  8. tgh97531

    tgh97531 Member

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    I do not have access to a wet grinder so taking .100 to .250 off the dies is not an option. I have tried different shell holders, swtched from a RCBS 43 to an RCBS 4. I am still coming up with the cartridge shoulder .003 too long as measured with of all things the Hornady Lock and Load Headspace Gauge Kit. Hornady is such a great company. This truely a wonderful county when the company that sells you the reloading dies also sells you a tool that will meaure within a 1/1000 that dies is not doing what it is suppose to be doing..
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2010
  9. boomtube

    boomtube Well-Known Member

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    "Has anybody else had this problem of cases not being able to chamber after full length resizing?"

    Lot's people do, all for the same reason. Actually, it's normal. When we can't chamber a reload it's a 99.9% probability the shoulder is too far forward because the sizer isn't down far enough to move it back. Proper FL sizing will push the shoulder back correctly.


    "Die instructions" only get us in the ball park, the rest is up to us. No one can tell us how to properly resize in a fixed 1-2-3 sequence. Dies and shell holders have a tolerance range that must be accomidated, presses have spring/flex in their bodies and compression in their linkages. All of the excess play in those mechanical factors must be adjusted for. Turn your sizer down another 1/16 turn (about 4.5 thou).
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2010
  10. britz

    britz Well-Known Member

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    rather than grinding on a 40 dollar die.... I would grind on a 5 dollar shell holder a bit first. Emery cloth or sand paper could possibly work.
     
  11. bigngreen

    bigngreen Well-Known Member

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    I've been where your at with a 270WSM and the die is likely not the problem, it's your head spacing or your chamber is a little fat. If a WSM is head spaced long and you run it hot enough your expanding the case out in the area of the web and just forward. In order to size that portion of the case down to fit you end up setting your shoulder way back to get it into the die enough to size down the back of the case.
    At first my solution was to grind the die, worked like a charm but hind sight I would have ground the shell holder, both are anti accuracy ways of doing it unless you grind it perfectly concentric, because when your die and shell holder contact at cam over you want things square.
    I then was getting good cases but I was moving a lot of brass and I knew that wasn't going to work in the long run so I started looking things over, I put some Prussian blue on the shoulder to see just when I was touching it and I found out that I was moving it back like .009-.010 to get the rear of the case sized, WOW that will screw up all kinds of things!!!!
    I ordered a head space gauge and started measuring stuff and found my head space was the same as I was having to set the shoulder back, way to long! So being a Savage I whipped of the nut and re-set the head space to the go gauge then took the gauge and set up a new Redding S FL die to it so it matched what I had just set for head space on the rifle. Fired some stout loads and tried it again, I had to set my die down just a little more for spring back but when everything was set the handle just cams over and the die and shell holder are in good contact. I re checked when I was contacting my shoulder in the die and found just as it cams over I set the shoulder back just a tad.

    I have a custom 270 WSM reamer setting here so I slid it in to see just how large the chamber is also, lets just say I didn't need a dial indicator, but I will live with that for now!!

    Now my brass is moving about .003 per firing after resizing instead of the .010, and now that I'm moving way less brass my bullet run out has gone from a solid .006 to .002 or less. Neck tension is staying even and my SD has gone way down and long range hit predictability has gone way up!!!

    I have concluded that a custom barrel with a well installed chamber set to the correct head space is priceless!!!:D

    Long explanation I know but man I learned a lot with this rifle and WSM brass.
     
  12. tgh97531

    tgh97531 Member

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    Bigngreen
    First let me say, I really appreciate the help and the reply. I am just starting back into reloading after a 15 year hiatus. I did some reloading in the 60s with a Lee hand loader and then some reloading in the early 90s.

    I am having a problem wrapping my mind around the concept that the problem is with the chamber and not the die. I am not at my bench right now but if I can recall correctly on my Federal rounds,(I am attempting to reload once fired brass) the brass shoulder is expanding about .002 to .003 from unfired to fired as measures with a Hornady Lock and Load head space gauge. Would not a .002 shoulder expansion on firing indicate that the chamber is fairly tight from a length perspective? I did not measure the width expansion but that is the next measurement that I will make tonight when I get to my bench. I really think that the problem is that the Hornady die was reamed too deep. I ordered a Hornady case holder to see if perhaps the problem is due to using a RCBS case holder with a Hornady die. That will leave me with two 7WSM case holders. I was looking to compare specs on the RCBS #43 and the Hornady #35 to see if it the problem might not be related to the case holder but could not find any information. I am also looking for the SAAMI specs for 7WSM. So that I can compare measurement between the unfired, fired and full length resized with a Hornady die so that I can determine if the problem is with the die or with the chamber. I really think that the problem is that the Hornady die was reamed too deep.
     
  13. bigngreen

    bigngreen Well-Known Member

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    It may very well be the die, but don't get tunnel vision. If you have any unfired rounds left or none fired cases take and put scotch tape on the back of the case and trim it of nice and see how many pieces you can close the bolt on. Each piece is .002, that will tell you exactly how much head space you have on factory cases.
    I also would put something on the shoulder, like Prussian blue or anything that will stick to the case shoulder a squish out when the case shoulder and chamber contact, if the rounds won't chamber because of case length then it will be clear.

    One thing I noticed before I fixed my head spacing was the cases were extremely hard to resize because of the expansion of the rear of the case, shoulder bumping is relatively easy.

    It maybe the die, that would be the preferred problem :D
     
  14. woods

    woods Well-Known Member

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    Hey tgh

    It is really not going to matter if your chamber is short shouldered or the die is long shouldered the problem is still going to be the same. It is possible to get another die and it will contact the shoulder but you are just taking a chance and spending some more $$$$.

    It seems that more and more factory rifles are being chambered short shouldered, large bodied and long throated nowadays.

    You could send a case to Redding and they will make you a body die that will fit your chamber better or have a machine shop cut off the die square on the bottom. Either will solve your problem. The place I had mine done was a bolt manufacturing facility. They had all kinds of shop tools and did a perfect job. Check around, you might get lucky.

    BTW - since you are measuring .002" to .003" with the Hornady Headspace tool, then the problem is most likely the die.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2010