neck size or full length size?????

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by bigbuck, Dec 15, 2009.

  1. bigbuck

    bigbuck Well-Known Member

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    As the title reads I was wandering if you guys neck size or full length size. I have a Rem 300 RUM with a custom barrel I use Federal 215 M primers Nosler custom brass retumbo powder topped with a 210G Berger. If I can get a tad bit more accuracey out of it by neck sizing only I will do it what's your experience and or advice? All is welcome.:) I'm interested in shooting bug holes as far as the eye can see:D

    Bigbuck
     
  2. MontanaRifleman

    MontanaRifleman Well-Known Member

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    My view on sizing has changed in the last year or so. I used to lean to neck sizing only and then partial FL size when the brass got too swollen to chamber. The advantage to that is less work stress on the brass. The disadvantage is you end up with a different shaped case after your occasional FL sizing. Maybe just slightly different, but none the less different. With my 300 RUM, I found the cases to swell quickly, and it seemed partial FL sizing only lasted one firing anyway, so I body size and neck size for each loading. I am now of the opinion that FL sizing or neck and body sizng should be done for each loading for consistancy. In the future, I wll probably use FL dies instead of neck and body dies unless I see an advantage to using the the neck and body die separately.

    I like bushing sizing becuase it is a lot less stress on the necks and I can determin the neck tension. Bushing dies can also be used for wildcatting or sizing different cals in the same case desings such as WSM's, -06 variations, RUMs, etc., There are some that say neck turning isn't necessary for bushing sizing if you get good brass and/or cull your brass. I prefer to turn my necks, once again, for consistancy

    Mark
     

  3. woods

    woods Well-Known Member

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    I also like to Partial Full Length Resize. The preferred method is to body size with a Redding Body Die and then neck size with a Lee Collet neck sizer. Gives very good results and low runout.

    Having the 2 dies allows you to just neck size until your brass has fully expanded (usually by the 3rd or 4th reloading) with the Lee Collet. Then when you start getting a crush fit in the chamber, you can push the shoulder back just a minimal amount of .001" or so to relieve the crush fit.

    There are several ways to get to the same goal but the answer to your question is 1/2 way in between, not neck size and not full length size - partial full length resize.
     
  4. Freebore

    Freebore Well-Known Member

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    I full length size enough to just bump my shoulder back .001- .002 on ALL of my cartridges. My customs shoot 'bug holes' at 200, my factory's shoot very well too. Good brass is a must. I'm a firm believer in annealing too especially in my big 30 cal after 3-4 firings.
     
  5. bigbuck

    bigbuck Well-Known Member

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    Mark,
    All I use as of now is just a standard RCBS die set.
    I do have a hornady neck sizer only die that's actually for a 300 winchester mag. Hornady said I can use it on my 300rum I've tried it and it works it's at the top of the adj. though. I was told by tim north to full length size but I feel like I'm working my brass to much . When you neck size only does it not line up the bullet with the center of the bore better if so? would you think that this would be some what better for accuracey? Thanks


    Freebore ,

    When you say that you full length size just enough to bump the shoulder back how much of the case can you see when your at full compression with your press?


    Woods,
    Can you explain a little more about the partial full lenght resize process that you do ?

    Thanks everyone for the different loading techniques ,this kind of has me feeling like I don't even know how to reload:) oh well that's why we ask questions to learn all we can.....

    Bigbuck
     
  6. boomtube

    boomtube Well-Known Member

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    "more accuracey out of it by neck sizing only I will do it what's your experience and or advice?"

    We all want bug holes as far as a 24x scope can see.

    No one can tell you what the result of neck vs. FL sizing will be. My experience and advice says to try it. Then you WILL know.
     
  7. Michael Eichele

    Michael Eichele Well-Known Member

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    For me it depends on how the chamber was cut. For example, my 338 EDGE is very tight. The cases only expand .002" at the shoulder and .001 at the head. For this I will FL size every time. When FL sizing, I prefer a body die and then a neck/bushing die as I DO NOT like expander balls. With this method, at least with this chamber, I get very long life out of the brass because I am not moving much brass during resizing. Now I used to wear out the cases early in the beggining because I was setting the shoulder back just a tad too far. Now I am down to .0005" and so far so good. When it comes to my 308 chamber, it is just the right demension for neck sizing only. It expands just enough but not too much. After fire forming and refiring, there are not stressed enough to continue to grow. The spring back to shape. I have had 6 firings on the same cases without them chambering tight. On the flip side, I have had chambers a bit more sloppy and the only way to keep the brass from getting tighter with every firing was to FL size them every time. What I had done with those cases was neck turned them and got rid of the expander ball in the FL die. I turned the necks just enough to achieve .002 neck tension without using needing an expander ball. I have found that to be the best way to minimize run out. It just depends on the chamber for me.

    M
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2009
  8. Buffalobob

    Buffalobob Writers Guild

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    That is what I normally do with my normal calibers.


    With the 7 Allen Magnum I have a custom chamber and a custom die so you basically are not working the brass very much when you full length size.

    For a hunting rifle you have to be careful about not sizing enough. It is funny how even with the same lot and brand of brass one case will size a little differently than the next one.
     
  9. bigbuck

    bigbuck Well-Known Member

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    I have a factory Remington chamber . Does this change things?
    I'm going to load some up that's fire formed to my chamber neck size only then i'm going to shoot some groups @ 300 yrds this should tell me what do yall think?
     
  10. Freebore

    Freebore Well-Known Member

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    bigbuck,

    I don't see really any of the case at the bottom as the internal dimensions and the die are that close. Usually bumping the shoulder .001 - .002 does the trick.

    You can get a shim kit for under the dies which help in setting the dies once and just changing the shim to get the correct 'bump' setback for your rifle chambers liking. You will need a set of these too;

    Graf & Sons - HORNADY HEADSPACE GAUGE KIT, BODY w/5 BUSHINGS

    Usually you can get a set of custom dies from the 'smith that chambered your rifle and they work the brass very little as Buffolo Bob stated. As for any other the Redding, Lee, or RCBS work just fine, your p[reference, the tool is usually only as good as the man the behind it.

    Take your time and find what your rifle likes. The rifle is also only as good as the fodder you feed it. Alot of so-so rifles can shoot very well with a carefully handloaded cartridge
     
  11. MontanaRifleman

    MontanaRifleman Well-Known Member

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    Bigbuck,

    If you only partial FL size - just enough so the cases barely fit easily - you will reduce the the work stress on the brass. More importantly, if you use bushings for neck sizing, you will reduce the stress to the necks by a whole lot. I would recommend the the Redding type S FL bushing sizer, and set it to FL size the body and shoulder just enough to make the case barely fit comfortably, and set the bushing to partially size the neck, leaving a small un-sized area at the base of the neck where it joins the shoulder, which is what we call a donut.

    Bushing sizing is the most likely way to get your neck concentric and leaving a donut at the base of the neck is the best way to align your bullet (assuming that your bullet is seated concentrically) to the bore, assuming your neck chamber is concentrically aligned with youir bore which might be questionable in a factory tube. FL or partial FL sizing will actually help in getting your bullet lined up by giving the case a little play for the donut to align the case in the neck chamber.

    The absolute best way to go is custom bushing dies and Niel Jones is porabably the best maker of custonm dies, or at least right there at the top of the list. They will cost you though, just like anything that is made custom.

    Ohhh... I know a guy who use a standard Redding FL die with a floating expander ball in conjunction with a rubber "O" ring. He partial sizes, leaving a small donut and says his neck runout is less than .001. He uses a Redding Comp Seater also and shoots one hole groups with his 300 WSM.

    Mark
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2009
  12. bigbuck

    bigbuck Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Mark...
     
  13. woods

    woods Well-Known Member

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    Well one of the problems is that there is not a set of definitions for the different kinds of sizing. I come by mine through the various forums and have settled on these:

    Partial Neck Sizing - sizing part of the neck and leaving part of the neck as a fire formed exterior do-nut, no sizing of the case body or pushing the shoulder back

    Neck Sizing - sizing all the neck but not sizing any part of the body or pushing the shoulder back

    Partial Full Length Resizing - sizing all of the neck, sizing the case body and pushing the shoulder back a minimal amount so there is some contact at the shoulder between the chamber and case

    Full Length Resizing - sizing all of the neck, sizing the case body and pushing the shoulder back so there is no contact between the chamber shoulder and case shoulder


    Like I say, this is my understanding and references are hard to find but here are three

    Full Length, Partial & Neck Resizing
    Varmint Al's Handloading/Reloading Page
    Collecting and Shooting the Surplus Rifle - Cartridge Case Sizing, Stretching, Trimming & Lubing

    So once your case has expanded enough to have a crush fit in the chamber, then you can resize to set the shoulder back .001" or so. Like Montana Marine says you can leave an exterior do-nut
    [​IMG]

    and this may help. It did not make a demonstrable difference in my limited testing but I thought it should have! You can also leave one of these by putting a washer around the case when using a Lee Collet
    [​IMG]

    or by the adjustable bushing type dies.

    Consistancy is the key and if you are neck sizing until you have a crush fit, then the case dimensions are changing, very minimally but changing nonetheless. Once you have fully expanded the case, sizing to set your shoulder at the exact same point everytime and make sure your brass has the same amount of work hardening, then you are the closest to duplicating the exact same case prep everytime.

    For me that is crush fit, partial full length and annealing everytime so the case dimensions and bullet grip are exactly the same everytime, or as close as I can make it.
     
  14. yobuck

    yobuck Well-Known Member

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    all of this is fine, and accuracy is certainly a very important part of what we do. but all you will need have happen is for one empty to get hung up at the wrong time. i have, and now i full legnth resize all my hunting loads. you can keep your bug size groups, ill take the second shot.