ss7mm
Well-Known Member
Roy:
Sounds like you have the rings solved
now just hope the scope holds up.
Good luck with your shooting.
Sounds like you have the rings solved
Good luck with your shooting.
Muzzle Brake and Scope Movement
- Thread starter royinidaho
- Start date
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Ian M
Well-Known Member
I have had three scopes go fuzzy on me and all three were on rifles with brakes. Have shot a lot of other rifle and scope combinations without any problems. I buy what Kirby and Shawn are saying, matter of fact I have heard that same sentiment about brakes from some other smiths.
We need them, simple as that, but not all scopes are created equal.
Dual dovetails give me the vapors... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
We need them, simple as that, but not all scopes are created equal.
Dual dovetails give me the vapors... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Kirby,
I knew about the negative G force on an air rifle would damage a scope that wasn't built for that purpose, but did not know about the muzzle breaks. The explanation does make sence. Do we have any riflescope manufacturers that are adverticing for their scopes being capable of taking this type of beating? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I knew about the negative G force on an air rifle would damage a scope that wasn't built for that purpose, but did not know about the muzzle breaks. The explanation does make sence. Do we have any riflescope manufacturers that are adverticing for their scopes being capable of taking this type of beating? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Dave,
As fiftydriver stated the windage screws on the reward mounts are not a very stable retention design during heavy recoil. I've had a set of the windage screws fail during load development on a Browning SS 7Mag. I can show you some really nice ring marks now.
As fiftydriver stated the windage screws on the reward mounts are not a very stable retention design during heavy recoil. I've had a set of the windage screws fail during load development on a Browning SS 7Mag. I can show you some really nice ring marks now.
royinidaho
Well-Known Member
Wierd how people like me learn.
I'd read all of this stuff from Lilja's site and others over last year.
It didn't really sink in until it became an experience of my own. Now I know that I know. Guess that's growth. Slow painful, costly growth, but growth nevertheless.
<font color="blue">How does one ensure that the dovetail ring is straight?</font>
W/regular rings a 1" bar will do it or the scope itself handles it.
I've noticed that the longer the distance between rings on the scope the easier it is to set the dove tail end. (and the 'smith'grimmace /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif) but how many of us do that? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Well, back when scopes were steel it weren't no problem! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I'd read all of this stuff from Lilja's site and others over last year.
It didn't really sink in until it became an experience of my own. Now I know that I know. Guess that's growth. Slow painful, costly growth, but growth nevertheless.
<font color="blue">How does one ensure that the dovetail ring is straight?</font>
W/regular rings a 1" bar will do it or the scope itself handles it.
I've noticed that the longer the distance between rings on the scope the easier it is to set the dove tail end. (and the 'smith'grimmace /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif) but how many of us do that? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Well, back when scopes were steel it weren't no problem! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Ian M
Well-Known Member
Roy,
The best way is to use a tool designed specifically for that job. Simply a pair of 1" or 30mm rods that have sharply tapered points. Put one in each ring, sharp tips pointed at each other above the midpoint of the receiver and turn till the tips touch, has to be straight and true.
You can get them from Brownells or have someone with a lathe make them for you.
Don't ever twist the dovetail on with the scope tube - that is a form of scope abuse /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
The best way is to use a tool designed specifically for that job. Simply a pair of 1" or 30mm rods that have sharply tapered points. Put one in each ring, sharp tips pointed at each other above the midpoint of the receiver and turn till the tips touch, has to be straight and true.
You can get them from Brownells or have someone with a lathe make them for you.
Don't ever twist the dovetail on with the scope tube - that is a form of scope abuse /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Eaglet,
There are several scope makers that offer scope of top quality for any rifle really. To get the ultimate, you simply go to the Fifty Caliber Shooters Association and see what is recommended for use on the big 50s by the guys that really use them alot.
The short list includes, and in this order:
1. Nightforce(vastly more popular then anything else)
2. Leupold fixed power Mk 4
3. Weaver Target models
The last one may suprise you a bit but top end Weaver scopes are extreme quality instruments. I have been using the now discontinues Weaver Tactical for years on my big game rifles and my AllenMagnums with brakes and they have yet to have any problems. THey are also mounted using standard windage adjustible bases and Burris Sig ring sets. Never had a problem.
Obviously other scope makers make scopes that will handle these special strains. The top end Burris scopes are pretty stout, at least the older ones, jury still out on the new ones since Berreta bought them out.
S&B are obviously top quality if you can afford them as are the USO scopes. Swarovskis are top quality as well.
For lower prices scopes, the Super Sniper scopes are suprisingly simple and stout as are the XOTIC Ultimate Sniper Scopes.
Basically you get what you pay for. If you spend less then $300 on a scope I would say on average you will have some problems with a big rifle fitted with a brake. Just get a well know brand with a good reputation for quality and you will be fine.
Kirby Allen(50)
There are several scope makers that offer scope of top quality for any rifle really. To get the ultimate, you simply go to the Fifty Caliber Shooters Association and see what is recommended for use on the big 50s by the guys that really use them alot.
The short list includes, and in this order:
1. Nightforce(vastly more popular then anything else)
2. Leupold fixed power Mk 4
3. Weaver Target models
The last one may suprise you a bit but top end Weaver scopes are extreme quality instruments. I have been using the now discontinues Weaver Tactical for years on my big game rifles and my AllenMagnums with brakes and they have yet to have any problems. THey are also mounted using standard windage adjustible bases and Burris Sig ring sets. Never had a problem.
Obviously other scope makers make scopes that will handle these special strains. The top end Burris scopes are pretty stout, at least the older ones, jury still out on the new ones since Berreta bought them out.
S&B are obviously top quality if you can afford them as are the USO scopes. Swarovskis are top quality as well.
For lower prices scopes, the Super Sniper scopes are suprisingly simple and stout as are the XOTIC Ultimate Sniper Scopes.
Basically you get what you pay for. If you spend less then $300 on a scope I would say on average you will have some problems with a big rifle fitted with a brake. Just get a well know brand with a good reputation for quality and you will be fine.
Kirby Allen(50)
ricka0
Well-Known Member
Kirby's explanation is right on. Here is what I wrote in my article on the new Burris Xtreme Tactical 30mm Rings to be published in the next VHP [ QUOTE ]
<font color="purple"> The BiggerHammer optics expert (alias "Don UT") reports good results with Burris Signature Rings® on his hard-kicking 338 Lapua and 36-oz. NightForce scope. His trick is putting rosin on the rings.
Because all my fifties have such efficient muzzle breaks, felt recoil is almost nonexistent; it's more like a push. But muzzle breaks do no favors to optics, rings, and rails; in fact, they put more strain on the system. The largest impulse on the optic system is during the first milliseconds, when pressure (hence bullet acceleration) is maximum. All the time the bullet is accelerating down the barrel, the muzzle break contributes no relief, so the optics system receives the same stress during this period as a non-braked gun. With a modern clam shell type break (like those on my State Arms (SA) and ALS 50s), muzzle gases are actually vented in the opposite direction as the bullet and therefore add a force in the opposite direction as the kick. It is this reverse acceleration that many claim makes muzzle breaks significantly harder on the optics system than the same non- braked gun. It's analogous to backing your car up and then throwing the transmission into drive while your still moving backward. My guess after studying pressure curves is that the added stress is probably less than 15 percent more than a non-braked gun. In any case, it's well understood that muzzle breaks may give your shoulder relief, but they are no help to the optics.
</font>
[/ QUOTE ]
In short there is no debate that clam shell brakes (with Sin(30= .5) ) contribute a negative acceleration and put more strain on the system. The only question is how much more. I question the magnitude claimed by many. Traditional 90 deg brakes can add no additional impulse.
If you need something stronger than the Burris Sig - go for the Burris Xtreme
<font color="purple"> The BiggerHammer optics expert (alias "Don UT") reports good results with Burris Signature Rings® on his hard-kicking 338 Lapua and 36-oz. NightForce scope. His trick is putting rosin on the rings.
Because all my fifties have such efficient muzzle breaks, felt recoil is almost nonexistent; it's more like a push. But muzzle breaks do no favors to optics, rings, and rails; in fact, they put more strain on the system. The largest impulse on the optic system is during the first milliseconds, when pressure (hence bullet acceleration) is maximum. All the time the bullet is accelerating down the barrel, the muzzle break contributes no relief, so the optics system receives the same stress during this period as a non-braked gun. With a modern clam shell type break (like those on my State Arms (SA) and ALS 50s), muzzle gases are actually vented in the opposite direction as the bullet and therefore add a force in the opposite direction as the kick. It is this reverse acceleration that many claim makes muzzle breaks significantly harder on the optics system than the same non- braked gun. It's analogous to backing your car up and then throwing the transmission into drive while your still moving backward. My guess after studying pressure curves is that the added stress is probably less than 15 percent more than a non-braked gun. In any case, it's well understood that muzzle breaks may give your shoulder relief, but they are no help to the optics.
</font>
[/ QUOTE ]
In short there is no debate that clam shell brakes (with Sin(30= .5) ) contribute a negative acceleration and put more strain on the system. The only question is how much more. I question the magnitude claimed by many. Traditional 90 deg brakes can add no additional impulse.
If you need something stronger than the Burris Sig - go for the Burris Xtreme
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Roy,
Unfortunately the increased stability and strength of the DD design takes away from your adjustment flexability.
The nice thing about the Burris Signataure rings is that they do not have to be perfectly straight on the rifle. Now that may sound funny coming from an accuracy minded gunsmith but remember the inserts are spherical in shape and they ride in a spherical surface on the inside of the ring. They will self align when the scope is set in the inserts.
Basically get them as close as you can and that will be fine, the inserts will keep you straight!!
As far as windage adjustment with the DD bases, the offset inserts can be used for this use as well and they work very well at it. These are a great ring design with many uses.
Kirby Allen(50)
Unfortunately the increased stability and strength of the DD design takes away from your adjustment flexability.
The nice thing about the Burris Signataure rings is that they do not have to be perfectly straight on the rifle. Now that may sound funny coming from an accuracy minded gunsmith but remember the inserts are spherical in shape and they ride in a spherical surface on the inside of the ring. They will self align when the scope is set in the inserts.
Basically get them as close as you can and that will be fine, the inserts will keep you straight!!
As far as windage adjustment with the DD bases, the offset inserts can be used for this use as well and they work very well at it. These are a great ring design with many uses.
Kirby Allen(50)
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
One last tip to keeping a scope from moving, this may sound really simple and strange but believe me it works...
Buy a Matte finished scope!!!
The frictional coefficent between the rings and a matte finished scope is much higher then with a gloss finished scope!!!
In fact this can make a dramatic difference in ring holding strength. I recommend matte finished scopes for every heavy recoiling rifle I build. Not only for the reduced glare but mainly for the better grip the rings will get on the scope tube.
This is especially true with the Burris Signature rings.
Good Shooting!!
Kirby Allen(50)
Buy a Matte finished scope!!!
The frictional coefficent between the rings and a matte finished scope is much higher then with a gloss finished scope!!!
In fact this can make a dramatic difference in ring holding strength. I recommend matte finished scopes for every heavy recoiling rifle I build. Not only for the reduced glare but mainly for the better grip the rings will get on the scope tube.
This is especially true with the Burris Signature rings.
Good Shooting!!
Kirby Allen(50)
royinidaho
Well-Known Member
The following is all tongue-in-cheek humor. Please take it no other way. But the facts are real.
Now they tell me about degreasing and matte finish scopes.
Today I learned about "degreasing" rings and inserts. Learn'd that after reading an above post and shooting about 25 rounds. Yep, w/o degreasing she slid right on up there. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
As this was going on I was shooting cucumber astronmic constellations all after noon. Ya know, 3 shots in an upward curve to the right, 3 shots in an upward curve to the left. Then a horzonal 3 shot group thrown in just to keep things confusing.
Then I remember'd from back in the old days, we'd make a scope adjustment then tap the turrets. Otherwise it would take a couple of shots to complete the adjustment. Just so happened to have a farriers hammer handy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif A farriers hammer is one of the least known important tools at any respectable shooting bench. After several 'decent' taps on both turrets next 3 shots going into a nice 1-inch triangle @ 200 yds. Which is what the rifle did with that load 3 consecutive times, before "something" changed.
The group was 12 clicks low and 8 clicks to the left. So, I went up 12 clicks and right 8 clicks. Then I did the magic tap thing.
Next two shots went straight up 6 clicks, <1" apart, and not over at all. Then third shot made it the rest of the way which put it spot on the bull at 200 yds. Next two shots went "in there" the third shot went into Kelsey's pasture. Next 3 shots started in Kelseys pasture with the last shot from the previous group then the next shot went up and right and third shot went up and right from the previous shot. That's when I gave up.
Me thinks I have all the evidence I need. Gonna check with the supplier and see what I can work out. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
On the 270 it worked great. Had drop chart made out to 750 yds and was confident on coyotes and milk jugs out to 650 actually 644 since I got the LRF
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
PS: There must be some magnumous forces going on. Some time during the afternoon I looked down and there on the bench was the black cap from the pistol grip. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
All in all I enjoyed the afternoon as my son was shooting with me and the 270 that I put together in 1966 and rebarrelled last year with him shooting was doing 0.5 MOA all after noon. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
PSS or PPS? or whatever:
You gunsmiths could learn from the autoparts clerk where I went to get some degreaser. He asked me what I wanted it for so as to get the proper stuff. When I told him what I was going to degrease he gave the following advice. Cut a 3/16ths by couple of inches or so of screen from the screen door and wrap it aroung the scope. Then install the rings. It'll never move!.
That's gotta be the guy in 4k'd Horn's signature /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Hey, he was dead serious. Musta been somthing passed down for generations /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Now they tell me about degreasing and matte finish scopes.
Today I learned about "degreasing" rings and inserts. Learn'd that after reading an above post and shooting about 25 rounds. Yep, w/o degreasing she slid right on up there. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
As this was going on I was shooting cucumber astronmic constellations all after noon. Ya know, 3 shots in an upward curve to the right, 3 shots in an upward curve to the left. Then a horzonal 3 shot group thrown in just to keep things confusing.
Then I remember'd from back in the old days, we'd make a scope adjustment then tap the turrets. Otherwise it would take a couple of shots to complete the adjustment. Just so happened to have a farriers hammer handy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif A farriers hammer is one of the least known important tools at any respectable shooting bench. After several 'decent' taps on both turrets next 3 shots going into a nice 1-inch triangle @ 200 yds. Which is what the rifle did with that load 3 consecutive times, before "something" changed.
The group was 12 clicks low and 8 clicks to the left. So, I went up 12 clicks and right 8 clicks. Then I did the magic tap thing.
Next two shots went straight up 6 clicks, <1" apart, and not over at all. Then third shot made it the rest of the way which put it spot on the bull at 200 yds. Next two shots went "in there" the third shot went into Kelsey's pasture. Next 3 shots started in Kelseys pasture with the last shot from the previous group then the next shot went up and right and third shot went up and right from the previous shot. That's when I gave up.
Me thinks I have all the evidence I need. Gonna check with the supplier and see what I can work out. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
On the 270 it worked great. Had drop chart made out to 750 yds and was confident on coyotes and milk jugs out to 650 actually 644 since I got the LRF
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
PS: There must be some magnumous forces going on. Some time during the afternoon I looked down and there on the bench was the black cap from the pistol grip. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
All in all I enjoyed the afternoon as my son was shooting with me and the 270 that I put together in 1966 and rebarrelled last year with him shooting was doing 0.5 MOA all after noon. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
PSS or PPS? or whatever:
You gunsmiths could learn from the autoparts clerk where I went to get some degreaser. He asked me what I wanted it for so as to get the proper stuff. When I told him what I was going to degrease he gave the following advice. Cut a 3/16ths by couple of inches or so of screen from the screen door and wrap it aroung the scope. Then install the rings. It'll never move!.
That's gotta be the guy in 4k'd Horn's signature /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Hey, he was dead serious. Musta been somthing passed down for generations /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Roy,
Forgot to mention this but measure your scope tube where the rings contact and make sure it has not collapsed. If it has you will have a hell of a time getting any 1" ring to hold it solid.
This is a common problem I see in the shop, especially with the old Weaver style rings, its very easy to crush a scope body a few thou and not really even know it.
Check this out and see what she mics. Some scopes are on the small side anyway but if it is collapsed you will play hell getting it to sit still.
Another trick if possible when using the Burris signature rings and one I have found is almost a nessesity when scoping heavy recoiling handguns. If you can set the front ring up so that the adjustment turret bell is adjusted directly behind the first ring, it will be mechanically locked in place and the signature composit insert will not damage the scope at all.
This is not always possible in a rifle scope but it generally is in a handgun but its worth a try. this offers a mechanical stop for the scope to ride against, recoil lug if you will!!
Have a great day, don;t give up the battle.
I am sure the screen idea would probably work well!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif May keep the flies off you as well if you use enough screen material /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif!!
Kirby Allen(50)
Forgot to mention this but measure your scope tube where the rings contact and make sure it has not collapsed. If it has you will have a hell of a time getting any 1" ring to hold it solid.
This is a common problem I see in the shop, especially with the old Weaver style rings, its very easy to crush a scope body a few thou and not really even know it.
Check this out and see what she mics. Some scopes are on the small side anyway but if it is collapsed you will play hell getting it to sit still.
Another trick if possible when using the Burris signature rings and one I have found is almost a nessesity when scoping heavy recoiling handguns. If you can set the front ring up so that the adjustment turret bell is adjusted directly behind the first ring, it will be mechanically locked in place and the signature composit insert will not damage the scope at all.
This is not always possible in a rifle scope but it generally is in a handgun but its worth a try. this offers a mechanical stop for the scope to ride against, recoil lug if you will!!
Have a great day, don;t give up the battle.
I am sure the screen idea would probably work well!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif May keep the flies off you as well if you use enough screen material /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif!!
Kirby Allen(50)
royinidaho
Well-Known Member
After degreasing it seems to be doing well.
Doubt there is any crushing or collapsing. Used Redfield/Leupold rings and didn't do the cave man thing on the wrench.
Think I'm gonna upgrade to a 16X Super Sniper. The IOR is fine and I like the extra couple of moa showing on the MP-8 and the Xotic (sic) is way heavy and way large on the front end and the SS will do the job less expensively. Plus we like the 10X we have on the 270.
I'll and put this one on the 222 to see if its messed up or just can't handle the recoil. If it isn't messed up that'll be good. If its messed up I'll send it in for repairs then put back on the 222.
Thanks for the advice.
Doubt there is any crushing or collapsing. Used Redfield/Leupold rings and didn't do the cave man thing on the wrench.
Think I'm gonna upgrade to a 16X Super Sniper. The IOR is fine and I like the extra couple of moa showing on the MP-8 and the Xotic (sic) is way heavy and way large on the front end and the SS will do the job less expensively. Plus we like the 10X we have on the 270.
I'll and put this one on the 222 to see if its messed up or just can't handle the recoil. If it isn't messed up that'll be good. If its messed up I'll send it in for repairs then put back on the 222.
Thanks for the advice.
