Montana corner crossing law hb235

Well the area I live in Land owners typically own farm ground... swapping land isnt an option for these people. Might be an option for a guy who owns land on the mountain or something. But that is definitley not the best solution... there is nothing wrong with corner jumping and the land owners need to get over it
Most of the ground in question in Montana is BLM and USFS land that is only good for grazing. Swaps could be made and the landowner could still lease the public land for grazing. Any farm only land, should be sold to the landowners and the funds used to purchase other land.

As a hunter, jumping corners is very inconvenient (PITA). I would much rather have contiguous blocks of land to hunt.
 
You are not going to see a lot of backing by sportman on HB404. Here is just one version on where the funds for HB404 will come from and what effects it may/would have.

Montana HB 404 Attack on Habitat Montana

My bet is a lot of land owners would not consider financial incentives anyway - why would they want to. I would not if I was involved.

Bottom line is this is a mess and only the supreme court will decide what is constitutional.

This is a concern for me as well. I don't see where many landowners are going to move. It's going need to be required somehow with as fair a solution offered to the landowner that is reasonable. That said, HB 404 doesn't provide that solution. There needs to be some other legislation.
 
Jeff, maybe I'm missing something but if there were land swaps and sales and purchases, it should all work out fairly even $$$ wise, shouldn't it?

And I agree that 25% for 2 years shouldn't be that big of deal. That said, I think acces via BM land is the least desirable solution because cooperation is voluntary on the part of the land owner who could decide not to participate and we are back to square one.

I think the best solutions are sales and purchase exchanges, swaps, and permanent easement purchases.

Also, I know a few sections of state land that are not good for hunting becasue they are grain fields, etc., and hold no meaniful game. IMO, the landowner/lesee should be required to purchase those sections as he is the only one who uses and benefits from them. The money from these sales could be used to purchase other lands that offer quality hunting and game habitat.

Just some thoughts.

I agree, BM is weak and could only be a temporary fix, but in the end does open up more public use land. The purchase of surveyed easements is where some funds are needed. And payment for surveys, appraisals, labor hours, paperwork etc.

Land swaps would be easiest, and remember they only need enough for access if that parcel is higher priced farm land. Have the land surveyed by two or more agencies, one chosen from each party. This will keep them all on the up and up. Then trade $ for $ no matter the acres involved.

I like to hunt grain fields for deer and antelope. If it is open to public use and no game is present where there is grain it could be it is being over hunted. I don't feel that there is any future in "required to purchase those sections" it may not be financially possible and may not fit into the lending portfolio of the said rancher. Forced purchase is risky and could be viewed as a element of failure and that could be viewed as a liability.

Jeff
 
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i own in 80 here in eastern montana, i would have O problem with someone corner crosing on the 2 legal sides ,if there was misuse of the area I would work on a little fencing project to guide people to the right crossing,,,

I am tired of the argument of cant find the corner, pin, ect, if the exact corner cant be found the landowner has no idea where there his private land is, if you dont know where your land is you cannot prosecute for tresspass, i have paid the surveyor, i know the exact location of corners, i dont have a public land corner problem, but if I did I would surely air on the public side,,,

should everyone give a little for the good of the public,,
if not keep every one off the landlocked land and just let it be,,,,
i understand this public ground as state land is supposed to generate income for schools,,
blm, forest service, not so much,,,
the money state land generates vs. the cost of maintaining, rules regulations and what not, i doubt there is much left over to give to the schools anyway,,,

i would have no rpoblem if EVERYONE was banned from these landlocked sections, let the land be what it is gonna be, let it raise wildlife or whatever,,,

when these parcels catch on fire why should public resource money be used to put out the fire, when the roads are bad why should public money be used to fix the road on these places that only a private landowner uses,,
i have personally seen govt agency installing culverts and maintaining these roads at different times makes no since to me,
I see pretty nice shooting range setup on the landlocked piece the rancher drives to all the time to shoot,,,
Where are the answers for these parcels to be made usable by all,

Why should a chosen few get to use these as if they own them,
why shouldnt the american prarie or some other organization compete for the bids on these places and pay double what the landowner pays, put a 6 ft tall 8 wire fence with no gates around them and keep everyone off,

Many people who enjoy the benefits off these parcels treat them as there own, THERE NOT< they are the publics,

Give me one good reason why the public should not be able to enjoy the use of said parcels,,,

Speaking of the Block Mangement deal, How many good parcels of land have been removed,,
How many will be removed in the future,, after the milk river land buy out, how many landowners will pull out of Block,

How many parcels are in block have virtually no game on them,,, I can show you a fair #,
block management is great, it has its flaws,,,
if every public parcel in the state had acces, could we do away with block and let the land owers lease there ground to outfitters,,,

landowners would still have a pay check, would there be enough land for the public to hunt, I dont know, Does the public have a right to hunt private land, no, kindness provides many opportunities,
maybe the offset in moneies from outfitters can make up for loss of grazing or farming on the public land,
i would pay 10x what I pay now to be able to use every parcel of public land in the state, if everyone paid this sum, how much money would be lost to the governments and schools,

every recreationist paying 100.00 per family per year for a permit to acces any public ground in the state would bring it lots of cash,,,

I realize I have an odd point of view, others do as well,, it may not be correct, we all need to realize there can be solutions for all, not solutions that benefit a few,,,,

this idea has been around forever, how has the situation gotten better for the public,, has it gotten worse for landowers,

if a landowner doesnt have enough energy to find his corners, fix his fences, post all his land so its clearly marked so its clear to see where trespass could take place, why should anyone be convicted of trespass,

Idaho has a much more comon sense approach to trespass laws, mark your land, farm it or irrigate it, if not, dont worry about people trespassing on your land, if the land is the actual thing that is so valuable a landower will take care to see any and all things can be done to prevent trespass,
























QUOTE=Broz;770080]So Mike if they wanted to make a walk way across the corner of your back yard to access a lot with no access you would be ok with them using that corner of your private property for a traffic point?

Visualize an , x , you own the left and right corners. They need x amount of feet left and right each direction of your private property. You should just let them use it or give it to them?

Jeff[/QUOTE]
 
I like to hunt grain fields for deer and antelope. If it is open to public use and no game is present where there is grain it could be it is being over hunted. I don't feel that there is any future in "required to purchase those sections" it may not be financially possible and may not fit into the lending portfolio of the said rancher. Forced purchase is risky and could be viewed as a element of failure and that could be viewed as a liability.

Jeff

I am thinking of a few specific sections around the Amsterdam/Manhattan area that just do not have any meaningful game. There is no cover and it is basically bare with short stubble after harvest and of little interest to deer (no antelope at all) or birds. I would propose they be sold to the lessees for a more than fair price with a no interest payment plan. Like maybe double the current lease, and then when purchased they start paying taxes like everyone else. If that causes a financial hardship, well then time to consider other options. But this is good producing land and I don't see where it would be a hardship. It is essentially public land that only that only one private party uses and that should be corrected IMO. I'm guessing there may be similar plots around the state.
 
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i own in 80 here in eastern montana, i would have O problem with someone corner crosing on the 2 legal sides ,if there was misuse of the area I would work on a little fencing project to guide people to the right crossing,,,

Is there indeed a corner like we are talking about that needs a corner crossing from public on 2 sides, and are you allowing people to use 2 corners of your property to cross?

Just curious.

Jeff
 
This all goes back to how do you know someone tresspassed if you don't know the corner? And I am so glad this judged ruled like he did. Might not be much but sure is hope.
 
This problem is not going to go away as it has way too much publicity/momentum going on it.

Let me state that I am a landowner (2 different States), as well as a sportsman/hunter. Corner crossing is illegal in Montana but not in the other State I own land. With that said - I will assume it is a legal State issue and not a federal issue.

The State of Montana needs to come out and state strongly if it is either legal or illegal and will they prosecute to the max if someone tests it. AMEN

As a landowner in Montana, if the verdict comes back that corner crossing is legal, I am going to be pizzed, but I'm a big boy and I will abide by the law. We land owners are the most independent SOB's that God ever created.

If it is determined to be illegal then as a sportsman/hunter I need to shut up and stay the hell off. If it is determined to be illegal than as sportsman/hunters we need to determine if it is worth the fight because I will assure you that all the Sportsman in Montana don't have enough money to either have the corners surveyed or be able to pay to trade parcels of land with individual land owners, or foot the bill to buy access from various/multiple landowners.

The last survey I had done on a parcel of land I could have bought the same rifle Broz is having built along with his new nightforce when I paid that bill after recording the title. Not economically feasible.

As far as having land appraised and then trading parcels. This is even more cost prohibitive. Going through that right now as I lost my last parent this past April. My family has been in agriculture long before I hit this earth and now it is time to determine what things are worth so it may be taken care of according to their wishes. The State of Montana would have to buy a dozen buses, hire and fill them with lawyers, and then do it again on the accounting side. Not economically feasible.

This whole thing can be cleared up by determining the legality. I as a land owner don't want that determination - I have everything to loose and nothing to gain. I as a sportsman/hunter have everything to gain and nothing to loose.

I think it is time for our new "Rep" attorney general to start earning his keep and rule on this - 5 years and 3 courts higher we will know where we stand.
 
Cowboy, I agree almost 100%. But as it stands right now it is indeed illegal to jump corners in Montana. Just because one judge seen something in a single specific case he didn't like and tossed it out does not change that. Remember those hunters still lost their bulls and their tags. And further more the meat and potatos of the bill HB235 and the senator that pushed for it was asking for, in her words "the decriminalization" of trespass at these corners. I feel that makes it clear it has been and still is illegal in Montana. If it wasn't we would not be having this discussion.

Jeff
 
Yes , it is illegal now in Montana - I agree, and that is why I do not corner cross or agree to corner crossing at this time. However, I do think that from a "legal" stand point there is some grey in the legality of that. That grey needs to be cleared up and declared either black or white. One judges decision on one case doesn't mean squat to me. If you have the money, just appeal the verdict to the next higher court. I have seen way too many decisions overturned by a higher court. An example is the wolf-Malloy hunting season mess caused by Wy. not playing ball with the way the Feds wanted.

We have had this law on the Montana books for way longer than you and I have been on this earth - that doesn't make it legal by the constitution in allowing the public to access public land.

There are a number of areas in the State that have land owners that have closed off large areas , as well as shutting down 2 tract roads across their private land that were put originally there by horses and wagon wheels that have been used for years to access public lands. With todays "instant" and vast internet communication, cell phones, photo transmissions, etc. these instances are now thrown out there for all to see and to hash over as to what is right or wrong. We all have our opinion.

I do not see an economically feasible way to finance procurring access from all these land owners. Just not going to happen - as most of the land owners will not want to play in that game or deal with the legal headaches - just not worth the time and effort. As you well know, give the public access and "one" bad apple will turn a land owner livid.

I don't think any one of our R's or D's up in Helena right now can come up with any bill to make this thing satisfactory and equitable to all any/all parties. It is insane what is going on up there right now on sporstman's issues, buffalo, concealed weapons in bars banks and schools, testing and slaugthering of TB elk etc. Hell, there is a bill up there right now that designates what is a wild buffalo that the FWP is responsible for, all others to be shot on site if they traspass.
 
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