Montana corner crossing law hb235

[T3-OleMan]

Can a property owner close the ONLY road off that crosses his property and is the only access to public or pvt land that has no other access? I don't think so in this exact case I mentioned. What say you?

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Can a property owner close the ONLY road off that crosses his property and is the only access to public or pvt land that has no other access? I don't think so in this exact case I mentioned. What say you?

There are no roads to lands in question here. That's why the issue of being able to step by foot from one corner to another is the question.

Imagine a checker board. Black land squares are public and white land squares are private. The squares are typically 1 mile square (1 section). There are no roads.

 

[cowboy]

There are no roads to lands in question here. That's why the issue of being able to step by foot from one corner to another is the question.

Imagine a checker board. Black land squares are public and white land squares are private. The squares are typically 1 mile square (1 section). There are no roads.

You did a much better job of explaining in simple terms what this bill involves than I did.

As a landowner and a sportsman I see both sides of this. I like Bigngreen's examples because I've been there, done that from a Sportsman's side. Also have the same opinion on eminent domain - have had to fight that one too.

This bill would have opened over 1 million acres to the public though that are now some personal property owners personal play grounds.

Best example is, take a look at the Crazies Mtn on a map. Solid checkerboard and there is minimal fences and half way up there are no fences. I don't think the outfitter or landowner wants any of that public ground opened up no matter how you do it, why would they.

 

[bigngreen]

Can a property owner close the ONLY road off that crosses his property and is the only access to public or pvt land that has no other access? I don't think so in this exact case I mentioned. What say you?

No they do not have to give access to public ground, the only way that I know of to keep an access open is if the public through and agency like BLM or NF has put money into a road, we lost a lot of access last year and in talking to the agencies that was the only leverage they had.
The other leverage that there is that would take state law changes is tying public access to grazing permit cost or making an equal access law where the land owner could only access the public ground by the same means that the public could.
While I like the idea of the corner jumping and it would open up a bunch of stuff for me I know dang good and well there would be a 4 wheeler trail and cut fence at every corner because of the lack of respect so many have of private property these days.

 

[Broz]

While I like the idea of the corner jumping and it would open up a bunch of stuff for me I know dang good and well there would be a 4 wheeler trail and cut fence at every corner because of the lack of respect so many have of private property these days.

I think we are back to the bill that was just turned down. The problem with corner jumping is. First lets clarify , 4 corners come together, two tips touch that are public, but the other two tips are private. The private section we are trying to access is surrounded by private land on all 4 sides. This point comes down to a pin point where we drive a stake. That is not an access point. To remain off the private ground you would have to step across the stake very carefully. There could be no gate to signify entry and a legal survey would need to be done to find the point for the stake. Even a 18" wide foot trail would be encroaching onto the private land. What if there is a tree, large bush, large rock, rock ledge in the path? Then what would the public do? This is why I feel that bill encouraged trespass on private land. Back to that stake in the ground, where the 4 points come together. There is no way to get a deer or elk out by dragging , 4 wheeler, horse, or game cart. All meat would have to be packed and still the fact that this access point would involve people using private ground is real. Now we know many of these corners are NOT marked. So our hand held GPS's is what we would use. They are accurate to within 10 to 20 feet. And I know on mine the arrow covers close to that. So we could at best only get close to the point and would indeed be trespassing. I just don't feel corner jumping would ever be the answer. There needs to be surveys, and trades, purchases or easements obtained for a legal access area. The reason it is called corner jumping is because that is just what it is. You have to jump or take a long step to get across it.

Jeff

 

[Broz]

Guys, land locked ground is an age old problem. This is no different than if the land was all private but with two different owners. If the owners don't want to allow access or sell and easement then that the way it is. But in many cases an easement can be purchased. I know not all, but why not work on the ones that can first?

Jeff

 

[300stw]

I see your point. But we shouldn't forget who feeds those animals year round. The reason the game is there is because there is feed.

yep dont forget who feeds many of the cattle and sheep in this world, PUBLIC GROUND

public ground in the west that is not even close to private grazing prices, been here before with the ranchers feed all the animals so they should get all the benefits, if it wasnt for ranchers there wouldnt be any game,,,,

if it werent for public land very cheap grazing system with overinflated aum's so ranchers can run more animals that the range can hold, where would ranchers be today,,
i have spent many years in this fight, family has 3000 mother cows in oregon and idaho at one time or another, if it werent for the public land the family would of never had near the cows or money in there pocket,,

i see many ranchers that would never graze there private ground like they do the public ground,,
i am all for ranchers getting something out of helping the public wildlife, let ranchers have all the tags they want to sell and guide, but make sure those tags are only for there private ground,, lots of big ranches in montana that shouldnt need the public land in any way to make a living on

this public acces has many many sides to the argument, i didnt want to bring up all this extra stuff,
there can be arguments made every which way on this deal,
at some time maybe landowners need to be more proactive about there land, mandatory posting or the land is accesible like Idaho laws,
access on section lines like in north dakota, lately everytime a landowner gets upset first thing is lets get rid of public acces, get out of the block management, lets keep the landlocked gems and use them like they own them,,,
common sense should dictate public use of public land or no use of the public land just let the land sit there an no one benefit,

 

[MachV]

Got to talking with a very level headed rancher the other day about corner jumping.I asked him what harm is there in me steping across the corner (to the best of my knowledge) He just smiled and said that it in itself wouldnt hurt much at all. Then he proceeded to give a brief history on his land. He use to let people drive back there if they asked=Then they quit asking and in time the road was tore up beyond use and he had to pay to fix it. After that he allowed access only by foot....If they asked, fair enough right? Well most would ask and those that did walked in but there are those that will abuse anything and everything and the road started getting tore up again and he shut it down and to be fair he shut it down to EVERYBODY....It made life a whole lot easier and cheaper for him,simple as that!
He looks me right in the eye and asks so do you see where this corner jumping thing will go?
To the landowners this is a fight much like the gun/parts ban is to most of us=Give them an inch today and they will take a foot tomorrow.
Sure wish I had a solution as there are those on both sides that are abuseing it!

 

[Broz]

yep dont forget who feeds many of the cattle and sheep in this world, PUBLIC GROUND
,

And paid for by the rancher in thousands each year. They pay for grazing public lands by the pair per day and it ain't cheep.

Jeff

 

[cowboy]

And paid for by the rancher in thousands each year. They pay for grazing public lands by the pair per day and it ain't cheep.

Jeff

I would agree - it ain't cheap. But - it is more economically priced than any private ground I can rent to graze

 

[bigngreen]

And paid for by the rancher in thousands each year. They pay for grazing public lands by the pair per day and it ain't cheep.

Jeff

Some of the allotments are paid for every year but the rancher can only run cattle once every three years. So what they pay is triple what they actually use.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I just don't feel corner jumping would ever be the answer. There needs to be surveys, and trades, purchases or easements obtained for a legal access area. The reason it is called corner jumping is because that is just what it is. You have to jump or take a long step to get across it.

Jeff

I completely agree. Not a good solution. Other arrangements need to be made. But something should be done because what we have now is a screw job to a majority of residents.

As a landowner and a sportsman I see both sides of this. I like Bigngreen's examples because I've been there, done that from a Sportsman's side. Also have the same opinion on eminent domain - have had to fight that one too.

Having to use eminent domain would suck. But the current state of affairs also sucks.

This bill would have opened over 1 million acres to the public though that are now some personal property owners personal play grounds.

Theoretically, but in reality, probably much less and corner jumping would be a PIA to the jumpers and the land owners.

Best example is, take a look at the Crazies Mtn on a map. Solid checkerboard and there is minimal fences and half way up there are no fences. I don't think the outfitter or landowner wants any of that public ground opened up no matter how you do it, why would they.

Very true. Eminent domain?

Bottom line is that big land owners weild a lot of power in this state and it will take a lot of convicing and persuasion to change things. I think if it ever happens, it will be a long slow process.

 

[Daveinjax]

I'm not a fan of eminent domain but without any leverage the ranchers have no incentive to make a land swap deal. Personally , if the land owner made the state use eminent domain then I want the state to give them the minimum. Offer a good deal and if they deal with bad faith then shaft them. A couple of hard cases getting a couple of hundred bucks and a big legal bill and the rest would make a deal to swap a 1/4 acre easement at a corner for a couple of acres of grazing land. There has to be a real threat that it's going to happen one way or the other.

 

[Broz]

Eminent Domain, against Montana's leading and largest industry..

Yeah, that's going to fly. Heck, lets just take all their land and open it to hunting only. Lets take all their guns too. And this coming from the group of people that are against assault weapons ban, fighting to keep our freedoms. But it's ok to take freedoms as long as they are not yours.

Well I think it is time for me to read a different thread for a while.

Jeff