Miracle BCs on Wildcat bullets...

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by STL_Shooter, Mar 10, 2005.

  1. STL_Shooter

    STL_Shooter Well-Known Member

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    So, I understand we now have a 170 grain Wildcat bullet with a BC fully .105 greater than the venerable (and heavier) Hornady 178 AMax.

    That qualifies as a miracle in anyone's book - and frankly, pretty hard to believe...

    Brent, BountyHunter, Ric, Ian, boys from the Williamsport club - have any of you actually tested these things?

    There's a lotta noise on the board about these bullets, and I'd like to hear from some of you that've tested them for actual BC.

    If they're as good as the claims made around here, we'll all have to rid ourselves of the measly Berger, JLK, AMax and MatchKings we've been getting by with, and stock up on Wildcats...
     
  2. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    STL,

    I have not tested the 170 gr bullet that you refer to, I assume its a 30 cal since you compare it to a 178 A-Max.

    Hornady lists the B.C. of the 178 gr A-Max at less then .500, 0.495 is what they are listing. Hell the 180 gr Ballistic Tip will beat this by a fair margin and it is no where near a VLD design, nor is the A-Max in this bullet weight.

    Why do you find it so hard to believe that with a little change in bullet design that we can not gain this much B.C. You for get that all we need to do is add length to increase B.C. So until you have seen the 169.5 gr Wildcats compared to other conventional bullets maybe you should not be so suspicious.

    How is it that the Sierra 6.5mm 142 gr Matchking as the equal or slightly better B.C. then the older and much heavier 155 gr design? This must be false as well but it is not, the much lighter(13 grains) has the full equal B.C. as the heavier bullet. Why, because Sierra went back and studied what made high B.C. numbers and bullet weight as very little to do with it.

    The 178 A-Max is one of the worst choices ballistically in the family of 30 cal long range match bullets. I will not say VLD bullets because it is even far from this level of performance, hell, the standard Hornady HPBT has a higher B.C. then the A-Max, how could this be??

    As for actual testing, I have tested the following over 500 yards extensively and will also do so at 1000 yards soon. Here are the bullets I have tested and what I have found as far as B.C. values for the Wildcat Bullets:

    .257" 100 gr BCFBHP-------.450
    .257" 130 gr BCFBHP-------.550 J-4 jacket
    .257" 130 gr BCFBHP-------.520 Heavy jacket for Allen Mag
    .257" 145 gr FBSP---------.500
    .257" 156 gr ULD RBBT-----.810

    .277" 169.5 gr ULD RBBT---.740

    .338" 300 gr ULD RBBT-----.800 Big game hunting version


    I have to take some measurements looking at bullet drop to figure out the B.C. of the .338" 350 gr ULD RBBT but it looks to have a number in the mid to high .900 range. Probably in the .970 area. THis is testing over a mile.

    Why don't you just try a box of these bullets and see for yourself. Richard is doing some very interesting things for the extreme range shooter and most of the talk on this site is from shooters trying his bullets.

    Give them a shot and I assure you you will probably drop the Bergers, Sierra and especially the Hornadies.

    Good Shooting!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     

  3. Matt27

    Matt27 Well-Known Member

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    Kirby

    email sent
     
  4. STL_Shooter

    STL_Shooter Well-Known Member

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    Kirby,

    Ummm, you are the one who introduced us to the 170 grain, ahem... 169.5 grain, Wildcat bullet in another post on this forum. Here's a quote:

    "I have some of his new 169.5 gr ULD RBT bullets here for testing right now. Great looking bullet, will be testing them soon in a match 308 I am building and a 30-06 AI. The B.C. of these bullets is right at .600 which is very high compared to any other 168 class bullet I know of in 30 cal."

    And thanks for your reply.

    A bullet would have to be something really special for me to give up my 1/3 MOA load with the 210 JLKs (actual BC approximately .665) flying at 3300...

    I mean, if the 169 (.5!) grain Wildcat has a real BC of .600, imagine what a 210 grainer would be! Prolly around .750! Again, for a guy shooting poor old JLK bullets at .665, that'd be a miracle. And I'm always open to a miracle... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

    So - are there any others - you know who you are. Come on, Brent - test these things! I'm working just too many hours right now. And then maybe Jimmy Knox will have to take up finger-paintin'... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
     
  5. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

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    To all

    To get some real unbiased and performance data on these bullets, suggest that they be sent to Henry Childs (aka HBC) at BR central. Henry is the ballistics guru right for this type info now and does this type testing daily.

    He can compute not only the BC but the SG and all other important data to include what the variance is from bullet to bullet in the lot sent to him.

    Pretty sure Henry (as a 1k competititor) would be more than happy to do this and report his results.

    He has worked with David Tubbs and sierra on the 115gr 6mm bullet that sierra just put out.

    What most people do not realize is that most of the really high BC bullets require extra fast twists that are not normally used. For example the 115gr 6mm needs either a 7 or 7.5 while most barrel mftrs are only making an 8.

    Henry can quickly calculate what the BC is, what is the uniformity (unless good, useless as a match bullet) and what is the probable working MV and twist required.

    Until that type of work is done, real crap shoot on making these bullets work across the board.

    BH
     
  6. Ernie

    Ernie SPONSOR

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    BH,
    Henry has just recently posted that a true 8 twist (8.2 twist Hart?) will stabilize the 115 tubb in 2 degrees above freezing at just above sea level in his gun. I do agree that Henry has done great work in this area. I appreciate his efforts tremendously. I also respect Kirby's integrity and I don't believe that he will write anything that is not true. Whether Richard's bullets will work across the board is yet to be seen since he is still in the process of putting some of these out. But I will be trying some of Richard's bullets in a LR specialty handgun where we are going for one mile. I am going to use what works best in my H-S (1-7 twist 7mmWSM). Mine will be an H-S Pistol while Steve's (sscoyote) will be a 7WSM XP built by Kirby. I also will be trying JLK, Berger, and Sierra in load development. I am excited about the possibilities.
     
  7. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    STL,

    Fair enough, I totally agree that these are very high B.C. numbers for the bullet weights.

    Are your numbers for the 210 JLKs proven over 1000 yards. I would actually be suprised if they were not getting higher B.C.s then that to be honest but I am sure you have fully tested them.

    I have not yet tested the 169.5 gr. As I stated earlier I will be doing so in a tactical rifle I am tuning up in 308 Win. After I test them I will report what I find. If the numbers say they have a B.C. of .500 then I will certainly report that. That I have been very impressed with concerning the Wildcat Bullets is not only high B.C. but the unique features they offer like using heavy tapered jackets that are designed for use on big game at high and low velocities. This is not something offered by most VLD bullets.

    They are also generally very accurate. Most of the Wildcat ULDs I have tested have shot tighter averages then the Sierra Mk bullets so they are very accurate as well as great for terminal performance.

    Finally, the B.C. numbers that Richard offers to customers come straight from the mouths of the bullet die manufacturers. Being a single man business, Like myself, Richard depends on the honestly of his suppliers and the testing of his customers to provide accurate and reliable information on his bullets.

    While he certainly test his bullets on range, he does not have the time to run the detailed ballistic testing on every bullet he makes. That is left up to some of us.

    I will say that every B.C. projection Richard has offered to me with his bullets are generally right on or even low of what the bullets actually produce in the field. I have no reason to not believe the numbers he give me.

    I will report on the 169.5 gr bullets soon with range numbers that will tell what B.C. they produce in the 308 win.

    Good Shooting!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  8. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    BH,

    I agree with your comments on twist.

    The 156 gr ULDs in 257 will stabilize in a 1-8 twist at 3000 ft elevation and at 3350 fps. Of course when loaded to 2900 fps they are not stabilized fully.

    I do not feel a bullet is adiquately stabilized when it will go from having nose tears on paper at 100 yards at the low range of its velocity to shooting 2" groups at 500 yards at the high range of its velocity range.

    For this reason, I paid to have Dan Lilja tool up for a 1-7" three groove tooling for this bullet and even a slightly heavier pill such as a 165 gr ULD in 257.

    I have tested the 156 gr over 500 yards and this bullet is running in the low .800 range for B.C.

    The bullets Xphunter is referring to for his 1 mile handgun shoot are predicted to top 1.000 b.c., we will see if they will. They will also be requiring a 1-7 twist.

    The 169.5 gr ULDs in .277" are shooting extremely well in a 1-8 twist barrel out of my 270 Allen Mag loaded to 3450 fps. This is really probably a bit more then needed but these are big game rifles used in extreme weather conditions, I would rather be safe then sorry. Especially when a customer of mine lines up on a 170 class Canadian Whitetail at 500 yards in 0 degree weather!!!

    Good Shooting!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  9. jb1000br

    jb1000br Well-Known Member

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    Yep, HErm, you may want to edit this statement:
    "What most people do not realize is that most of the really high BC bullets require extra fast twists that are not normally used. For example the 115gr 6mm needs either a 7 or 7.5 while most barrel mftrs are only making an 8."



    Kirby or Richard -- i can test the 169.5/30 cal bullet against my 175SMK loads in competition from 100-1000yds if either are interested -- you know how to get a hold of me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    Jason
     
  10. bucknutz

    bucknutz Well-Known Member

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    go kirby,i'm game! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
     
  11. Mysticplayer

    Mysticplayer Writers Guild

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    I have used a lot of different Hornady Amax and SST bullets in several cals and in different rifles. In all cases, the BC in the real world is higher then print. This is based on scope adjustments, muzzle velocity inputted into ballistic programs.

    I have also done side by side comparisons between poly tipped bullets like Nosler BT, Amax and Nosler J4 (similar to MK). In all cases, using the same muzzle velocity from the same rifle, the HP match bullet needed more elevation change. This was in the 2 to 4 MOA range at 650yds. That's a lot.

    I have now been playing the 6.5 140gr SST and it is something special. I know that my scope adjustments indicate a wacky high BC (I posted this a while back and am still waiting for others to give feedback from their tests). The only thing I know is that this bullet is longer then all 142/139gr match bullets I can get my hands on.

    If bullet length is a good indicator of BC, these SST's are higher then MK/Lapua's. If the poly tip reduce drag and increase BC, then these SST's have a higher BC. If they are the same length or longer then a larger cal bullet of known BC, the BC should be higher. They shoot in the 1's too.

    So if there are some of these Wildcat bullets around, why not just compare them to heavy MK's. We know that the data from Sierra is very close to real world experience.

    If say these Wildcats are as long as a 190, 200, or 220gr MK, there is grounds to assume that the BC is similar. Of course, real world testing is still needed but a good start.

    I have 200 to 240gr MK so if someone can measure these wildcats and post it, I will compare.

    Jerry

    PS if length is a good indicator of BC, the Hornady 308 165gr Interbonds are even longer. Higher BC????
     
  12. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Jerry,

    As you know length is but one matter in producing high B.C.

    Others such as nose profile, Meplat diameter, body length and boattail angle, length and design are all factors that will either increase or decrease B.C. accordingly.

    Good Shooting!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  13. Varmint Hunter

    Varmint Hunter Well-Known Member

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    Not much experience

    I really have limited experience with calculating B/C's but I did notice the the 75gr A-Max (.224) when fired at close to 3,700 ft/sec ALWAYS printed above what was indicated on my ballistic chart when I plugged the stated B/C into the software.

    It was very noticeable out past 500 yds or so. I just figured that the software wasn't that accurate, but who knows? Maybe its the moly. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
     
  14. reed mosser

    reed mosser Well-Known Member

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    75 A-MAX B.C

    I too have noticed the b.c on the 224 bullets to be lower than it actually is. My guns are right on with .224 a amx with a B.C of .475. Also the sierra and nosler 80 gr .224 rate their b.c at .440 in my guns it seems that it is around .5. Maybe they calcuate the B.C ate different allitudes or something, but most of the time they don't seem to be on, close but not perfect.