Minimum Velocity Clarification

[mrb1982]

So I have read that Berger recommends 1800fps for expansion. Yet, a lot of numbers that I seem to run seems like most cartridges, unless we are talking some of the massive 338's, tend to hit that magic 1800fps around 800-1000yds. With that said, I have seen a lot of videos and read stuff about guys shooting stuff further than that. I understand that elevations and conditions will also weigh into the equation. I am just wondering that is 1800fps the common rule everybody out there uses or is there something I am missing here.

Also, I would like to add, this isn't to be an arguementative topic, just educational for myself. Everybody is entitled to their thoughts or experiences on this so I am just more or less interested to hear everyone's side of it. I have read a few of the other threads but they didn't really answer my questions the way I was hoping so I will see if the answers come out in converstation on this thread. Thanks for your advice.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

It depends on the cartridges and bullets you are talking about. Most of the cartridges discussed in this forum will send a bullet downrange past 1K with greater than 1800 fps.

My 6-284, 6.5 WSM and 300 RUM will all send the higher BC bullets well past 1K with over 1800 fps.

 

[mrb1982]

It depends on the cartridges and bullets you are talking about. Most of the cartridges discussed in this forum will send a bullet downrange past 1K with greater than 1800 fps.

My 6-284, 6.5 WSM and 300 RUM will all send the higher BC bullets well past 1K with over 1800 fps.

Could you tell me some little stuff about your 300RUM like MV, and bullet? Just so I can use some real life info to rationalize some things out for myself.

So waht you are saying is most people are abidding by the "1800fps" rule, just depends all the other factors?

 

[cohunter14]

I think most people do abide by the 1800 fps rule. A decent 300 rum load would be a 200 Accubond or a 215 Berger Hybrid at 3,100 fps.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

My old 300 RUM shot 180 E-Tips to 3400 fps and 210 Bergers to 3130 fps. The 210 Bergers get to 1100-1400 yds under normal environmental condition for the altitude I hunt in which range from 3000' to 10.000'

In my new RUM, I will be shooting higher BC bullets, like the 230 Hybrid, at equal or great velocities.

My take is that most guys do consider the limitations of their bullets and don't usually exceed them. Also, not all bullets have the same opening velocities and some, like the Bergers, may expand at lower velocities in the lager and heavier cals/bullets while smaller and lighter bullets may not do as well. That's just a very general statement.

Some guys, are not too concerned with expansion and will shoot a larger bullet, like a 300 gr SMK, at ranges beyond expansion velocity. BTW, Sierra does not list an expansion velocity for SMK's, as they are "officially" not intended for that purpose due to military requirements.

I know of one bullet maker that specifically tested high BC non-expanding solids on game to see how they performed. The idea is that they will tumble and cause a lot of damage.

So, no really hard and fast rules, but most use bullet performance set by the manufactures as a guide.

 

[mrb1982]

My old 300 RUM shot 180 E-Tips to 3400 fps and 210 Bergers to 3130 fps. The 210 Bergers get to 1100-1400 yds under normal environmental condition for the altitude I hunt in which range from 3000' to 10.000'

In my new RUM, I will be shooting higher BC bullets, like the 230 Hybrid, at equal or great velocities.

My take is that most guys do consider the limitations of their bullets and don't usually exceed them. Also, not all bullets have the same opening velocities and some, like the Bergers, may expand at lower velocities in the lager and heavier cals/bullets while smaller and lighter bullets may not do as well. That's just a very general statement.

Some guys, are not too concerned with expansion and will shoot a larger bullet, like a 300 gr SMK, at ranges beyond expansion velocity. BTW, Sierra does not list an expansion velocity for SMK's, as they are "officially" not intended for that purpose due to military requirements.

I know of one bullet maker that specifically tested high BC non-expanding solids on game to see how they performed. The idea is that they will tumble and cause a lot of damage.

So, no really hard and fast rules, but most use bullet performance set by the manufactures as a guide.

I think I'm pickin' up what you're layin' down here. Basically, smaller bullets so to speak, probably require effective expansion properties. Then when we start talking about the big ole bullets, there are some guys that are kinda going with a little bit of a thinking that a 300gr is a big enough peice of stone to deliver enough smoke. Very nice.

Sounds like a 300 ultra mag would be a pretty sweet shooting rig. Anybody want a 1/2MOA sendero 7RM? hahahahaha

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I think I'm pickin' up what you're layin' down here. Basically, smaller bullets so to speak, probably require effective expansion properties. Then when we start talking about the big ole bullets, there are some guys that are kinda going with a little bit of a thinking that a 300gr is a big enough peice of stone to deliver enough smoke. Very nice.

Sounds like a 300 ultra mag would be a pretty sweet shooting rig. Anybody want a 1/2MOA sendero 7RM? hahahahaha

You could probably get a good price for it here or on Armslist I sold a couple of Senderos pretty quick on Armslist earlier this year. They are a very popular rifle and hold their value well.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

Ive always followed the rule that 1000+ lbs of energy is the safe zone and after that shot placement should be priority.

 

[mrb1982]

Ive always followed the rule that 1000+ lbs of energy is the safe zone and after that shot placement should be priority.

I am wondering if lets say a guy follows the "1800fps rule" for expansion, but if you still got lets say 1500-1000ft/lbs energy when you are below the 1800fps, does it kinda act like some of the modern day bullets that are built to retain their mass and one would use that energy for penetration????? That could probably work too.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

I am wondering if lets say a guy follows the "1800fps rule" for expansion, but if you still got lets say 1500-1000ft/lbs energy when you are below the 1800fps, does it kinda act like some of the modern day bullets that are built to retain their mass and one would use that energy for penetration????? That could probably work too.

I dont know for sure. I dont see why it couldnt. I also think that it could still open up and shed its jacket even though it is under the recommended velocity.

 

[mrb1982]

I dont know for sure. I dont see why it couldnt. I also think that it could still open up and shed its jacket even though it is under the recommended velocity.

You could be right. Of course that is all gonna depend on the game one is shooting also. Like stated in the earlier posts, some of the guys shooting the real big bullets aren't even that worried about it. Seems to me that with some of the smaller ones, if you have enough energy left you still should have fair performance.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

You could be right. Of course that is all gonna depend on the game one is shooting also. Like stated in the earlier posts, some of the guys shooting the real big bullets aren't even that worried about it. Seems to me that with some of the smaller ones, if you have enough energy left you still should have fair performance.

Most guys are concerned about good bullet performance, especially with the lighter bullets. To plan for a bullet not to expand is very risky. If they pencil hole all the way through, the animal will take quite a while to expire. The longer high BC bullets are more likely to tumble and do damage, but IMO, the best plan is to have a bullet cause massive damage through proper expansion.

Also, as far as I'm concerned, KE is an abstract measurement of energy and no one can quantify just how that translates to killing power. If you use a solid that arrives on target with 2500 ftlbs of energy and it pencils through, most of the KE leaves on the offside of the animal. Different bullets perform in different ways and some low KE hits can be more damaging than some high KE hits. Also, animals come in different sizes and toughness. A bull elk might be almost twice the size of a cow and to make the blanket statement that you need 1500 ftlbs of KE to kill an elk just doesn't cut it. What you need to kill an elk is a bullet that enters, expands and causes great damage to vital organs. An exit wound is good too, but if you use a 180 7mm Berger that explodes and destroys both lungs, that works just as well.

My personal minimal preference for bull elk is a 308 cal, 180 gr @ 1800 fps or greater and everything would have to be just right for a good double lung shot. For cow elk and deer, I'll go with less.

I look at the animal, the shot presented, the bullet, the expected performance of the bullet and it's impact velocity.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

Also, as far as I'm concerned, KE is an abstract measurement of energy and no one can quantify just how that translates to killing power. If you use a solid that arrives on target with 2500 ftlbs of energy and it pencils through, most of the KE leaves on the offside of the animal. Different bullets perform in different ways and some low KE hits can be more damaging than some high KE hits. Also, animals come in different sizes and toughness. A bull elk might be almost twice the size of a cow and to make the blanket statement that you need 1500 ftlbs of KE to kill an elk just doesn't cut it. What you need to kill an elk is a bullet that enters, expands and causes great damage to vital organs. An exit wound is good too, but if you use a 180 7mm Berger that explodes and destroys both lungs, that works just as well.

I agree, but at the same time i feel energy is a very accurate way of determining a bullets potential to do damage. Although like you said it is completely dependent on how the bullet functions. With the aggressive expansion of the bergers i feel it gives a good forcast of what you can expect.

I look at the animal, the shot presented, the bullet, the expected performance of the bullet and it's impact velocity.

To mimick what you said here i think no guideline is a substitute for a shooter being familiar with his bullet and his capabilities.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

... i feel energy is a very accurate way of determining a bullets potential to do damage.

I think it's a ball park indicator. I think velocity, caliber and weight of the bullet is the best determiner.