Discussion in 'Long Range Scopes and Other Optics' started by Peder, Sep 7, 2002.

  1. Peder

    Peder Member

    Aug 29, 2002
    HI !
    I can not figure out how to do the range estimation with mildot reticle, if the target is 1/2 mil. Is it 0.5 or!, even on the mildotmaster its hard to maseare example a 12 inc with 1/2 mil.When i do the math and type in 0,5 its turnouts wrong, or am i do it wrong. Please help to figare this out.
    Peder Johannson

  2. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

    May 3, 2001

    I'm a little confused about what you are having trouble with, is it that you can't mil at .5 accurately or that you can't use the MilDot Master at .5 accurately?

    To mil accurately you need practice. .5 mil is not too difficult and can be done easily in the USMC type "dots" by mil'ing from the center crosshairs or using one of the dots as .5 the object mil'ed. There is now a Gen2 reticle available from Premier that has .5 MIL marks.

    To determine distances with small mil readings use the right side (Bullet Drop) of the MilDot Master, not the left side (Target Range). Set the sliders' 12 inches mark on the "Bullet Drop" scale next to the .5 MILS mark and read the distance from the standard (left window) "Target Range" indicator. Using this method you can range to .30 MILS and 2 inch objects.

  3. CatShooter

    CatShooter Well-Known Member

    May 8, 2001

    Leupold doesn't use 1/4 mil USMC dots on their scopes... except the M3-LR.

    The reticle for the M3-LR is made by PremierReticles for that single scope, and is on wire, with football shaped dots.

    All the rest of Leupold's mildot scopes have .22 mil dots that are round, and etched on glass.

    The new Gen 2 reticle from Premier has round, .20 mil dots, and is etched on glass...
    ... kinda keeps you on your toes, Yeah?

  4. daveosok

    daveosok Guest

    Hey bud how ya been?

    You may want to check out Leupolds site about which style of Mildot they are using.

    The scope I have is their Vari - X III 6.5 - 20 X 50 mm, side focus, Long Range Target 3/4 Mildot.

    The dots are oblong.

    Their customer manual does not state anything about the mildot system and how to use it.
    Their site is where I got the information on what style of mildot they use.
    They may have changed it back when I bought my scope to a different style.
    It is not etched on glass either.

    Their is some conflicting information on their site however. The scope I have is a 3/4 mil, now are they talking about the distance between the edges of the dots because that is 3/4 of a mil, but the distance between center of the dots is 1 mil.
    So what is my scope actually?
    I would think that it is the 1 mil since the distance between centers is 1 mil but the box says 3/4 mil.
    The scope number is 52199.
    Date purchased 09/29/00.

    [ 09-07-2002: Message edited by: daveosok ]

    [ 09-07-2002: Message edited by: daveosok ]
  5. Willy 1

    Willy 1 Well-Known Member

    Apr 3, 2002
    To Daveosok or anyone else . Can someone explain to me what a mildot master is and how it works ? Does the 36 inch in your example equal a mildot at a 1000 yards ? When you went from 333.3 how did you change to 3.333 / .5 .
  6. daveosok

    daveosok Guest

    This is why I hate millradians.
    I haven't used the mildot master so I will only tell you how you have to do it the old fasion way.

    You must first find the target size in yards which is a decimal equvilent, where yours is 12 inches compared to 36 inches.
    12 / 36 = .33333333333 I rounded off to four decimal places an old machinist habit but I guess you could do three places and still be ok, however when you get out their to where these guys are shooting on this board the small stuff counts.

    .3333 X 1000/number of mils taken up

    .3333 X 1000 = 333.3
    3.333 / .5 = 666.6

    Its easy when you have a multiplier of one half. But say it was .7 mils that you had to devide by, you'd need a calculator or the mildot master. Since not everyone has a computer for a brain and field math with what equals what at certain distances can get you either right on target or your way off the bubble.

    This is why I like MOA reticles, whatever it is in inches is what you use, not a fractional decimal equivilent of 36 inches.
    MOA to me is much easier.

    Object in size of inches / number of moa X 100
    Now your saying that you have a target that is 12 inches in height. In MOA it would have a height of 11.459 moa.
    Since everyone agrees that one moa is one inch @ 100 yards will will stick with the 12 inches.

    1 Mil = 3.438 MOA
    You have half a mil registered as your range using a target size of 12 inches.
    12 / 1.719 MOA X 100 = 698 yards compared to 666 with the mil dot. (for the rest of you reading this jump in if I'm wrong and correct me!!!!)

    You must be exactly correct reading the mildots or moa and since they have yet to put a mildot scope on the market that has it sectioned off from the center of the crosshairs to the first mildot where their should be 7 very small dots and the egde of the first dot indicating hundrenths of a mil or .1, between each dot their should be 6 dots.
    But their isn't, unless you have one custom made say at Premier Reticles.

    Since Leupold uses USMC mil dots, the dot size is actually .25 so you could use a half of the dot which would be .125 but then again 3 decimal places devided by 4 decimal places well you do the math.

    I enjoy MOA a lot better and size its in inches you can guess distances of items that you know your close to say a truck tire most factory truck tires are 31 inchs tall, thats .8611 when using the mildot formula, or 31 inches using MOA.
    Or you can put tha kabosh to all of this and go get a laser range finder!

    A small handheld caculator or palm pilot with software either programmed in or downloaded for trajectory and click values at certain distances.

    [ 09-07-2002: Message edited by: daveosok ]
  7. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

    May 3, 2001
    Willy 1

    Here's the MilDot Master site

    It'll axplain how the MM works.

    On the first post by Daveosok he's performing a conversion. Basically he's taking the 12 inches that Peder stated as an example target size and converting it to portions of a yard. 12 inches / 36 inches = .333333 He then multiplies this by 1000 to get a distance reading 333.3 (I'll return to this later.)

    Then Daveokos is determining the actual target distance by dividing the .5 Mil that Peder stated as the mil reading on the target (the 12 inch example target) So the 333.3 yards (Daveosok mis-typed to 3.333) /.5 = 666.6 yards as a target distance of a 12 inch target mil'ed at .5 mil.

    A mil essentially equates to 36 inches at 1000 yards (very handy for us that this 36 inches also equals 1 yard). So a reading of 1 mil on a 36inch target would put that target at 1000 yards. Daveosok converted this by determining the ratio of the 12 inch target to the 36 inch 12/36 = .3333. He then needed to get the 1000 yards back into the equation and multilpied by 1000 to get 333.3 yards. So, to this point he's determined that a 12 inch target at 1 mil is 333.3 yards away. He then takes the actual mil reading of .5 and gets the final answer of 666.6 yards.

    Once you become familiar with Mil readings you'll select your own method of range determination. The MilDot Master is very easy and nearly anyone can use it well.

    If you only mil a few items you can make a chart and place it on the rifle or carry a laminated chart in your pocket. for example:

    18" deer (big Muley)

    5 mil tall = 100 yards
    4 mil tall = 125 yatds
    3 mil tall = 166 yards
    2.5 mil tall = 200 yards
    2 mil tall = 250 yards
    1.75 mil tall = 285 yards
    1.5 mil tall = 333 yards
    1.25 mil tall = 400 yards
    1 mil tall 500 yards
    .75 mil tall = 666 yards
    .5 mil tall = 1000 yards

    (The method I use (when I'm only mil'ing one size item's) to determine distances is similar to Daveosok's. I mentally convert the target sizes to mils then divide by the mil reading. As an example, for local deer (they're smallish) I figure 15 inches back to brisket 15/3.6 = 4.1666 (round to 4.0), this let's me know that a deer 100 yards away should be very close to 4 mils from back to brisket. Now, when I'm local hunting deer and I mil one, I can very easily determine his approximate distance with mental math. If he's 2 mils back to brisket I know he's 200 yards away (the 4 mil "standard deer at 100 yards" /2mils for the current reading = 2 * the 100 yard standard. If he's 1 mil tall, he's (4/1 = 4*100 yards standard =) 400 yards away.)
  8. Ian M

    Ian M Well-Known Member

    May 3, 2001
    Apparently there are at least two mathematical methods for using Mil-dots. Since I have trouble counting my fingers I have to keep this all very simple.

    The base formula that I was taught is
    Size of Object in inches times 27.77 divided by the Mil reading. That is a bunch of frigging math. But, there is a simpler way that does work well in the field.

    Let's use the magic 18 inches, which is about the backline-brisket dimension of a good buck, or the ear width of a Sask. whitetail. 18 times 27.77 rounds off to 500 (499.86). That is a constant. So you estimate the Mil reading in tenths and divide that number into 500. Result is distance in yards. If it is exactly one Mil the distance is 500 divided by one or 500 yards. Two mils would by 250, half a mil would be 1000.

    You can figure these constants for any numbers, 10, 12, 15, 18, 24 etc. any number that relates to the critter that you are hunting. When you know a good working number create a simple chart for that constant and what Mil reading would be what distance and fix it to the side of your rifle.

    The ugly challenge in using Mil-dots is learning to mentally estimate 1/10's. You have to mentally break each Mil into 1/10's.

    I was very fortunate to be taught by Steve Suttles and Bobby Whittington (Badlands Tactical Training) - these guys live this stuff and they were very patient as they spent a couple of days on it so that I could really understand their system.

    They use the big posts as a starting point for Mil-ing, rather than the crosshair intersection and that sure works for me. They also had me use a pocket calculator continually so that I got used to the frigging math. I believe that I introduced them to the Mil-dot Master and they are now using it, it is a great tool

    How in hell does one decide 3 tenths from 4 tenths? One way is to go out in the country and set up some 18" boxes or pieces of cardboard, plywood or whatever. Move back a good distance, lay down, set a post on one side of the target and estimate how many tenths of a Mil the box is - or it might be one Mil plus 3 tenths. Do the math - 18 times 27.77 divided by the Mil reading or simply divide 500 by the Mil reading and you have a distance. Record that number and then do the following.

    First, laser or pace off the distance so that you know what you are working with. When you know the distance you can plug it into the formula to determine what the correct Mil reading should have been. Let's say it was 600 yards so the reversed formula would require simply dividing 600 by 500 = 1.2 Mils.

    Much simpler is to buy a Mil-dot Master. Then you can do the above very simply. You know the distance is 600 yards so you move the slider to line 600 yards with the indicator on the left column. Then in the right hand column you look at 18 and check where the number 18 lines up with the Mils which are on the far right. This let's you find out what the actual Mil-reading should be so that you can start getting a good mental picture of each tenths location. This is much simpler to do than it reads.

    No-one in their right mind uses Mil-dots when they could be using a laser for hunting. But if the battery is dead or the damn laser won't give a reading the Mil-dot will give a better distance than a wild-ass guess. That is if you know the size of the object and how to breakdown 1/10ths. Not knowing these distances turns the dots into little black things on the crosshairs. The use of CONSTANTS is a great idea.

    Good luck with the dots. Two othe points - Mil-dots do provide a great set of constant hold-off points. The new Nikon tactical comes with .5 hashmarks.
  9. Willy 1

    Willy 1 Well-Known Member

    Apr 3, 2002
    Dave and Ian Thanks for taking the time to explain this . It gets confusing when some scopes are in Moa and others are in Mil Dots Ian what part of Sask. are you in ? I also am in Sask.
  10. Ian M

    Ian M Well-Known Member

    May 3, 2001
    We live in the "capital-city", why - I am not sure. Finding a decent LR spot is not easy around here, too damn many people. That is why we drive at least 45 miles to a couple of spots.