Mildot vs MOA vs Rapid Z

Discussion in 'Long Range Scopes and Other Optics' started by feelinducky, Nov 7, 2012.

  1. feelinducky

    feelinducky Well-Known Member

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    I'm hoping some guys can give me a little help here. I am in the process of buying a new scope for a .243 win. There is so much info on the site that I'm just confused about it all. I would like to learn how to use the mildot or MOA system on this rifle and out to 1000yds on paper, and under 400 for deer, but I'm not sure which way to go.

    I currently have a Zeiss Conquest 4.5X14X44 rapid Z 800 which I really like on a 300 RUM, but I feel it has some limitations. I have been doing alot of reading here about the different reticles available and there are so many I'm totally confused about each one. I do like the conquest scopes. Once I figure out and feel comfortable with using mildot or MOA I want to put the scope on my 300RUM so I would like to get something beefy enough for the 300.

    Unfortunately, I do not have anyone that I know who shoots with either reticle or is interested in getting to 1000yds. So this is the main place to ask questions.

    Should I stick with the rapid z reticles or go with something I can dial? Moderately priced under $800.

    If there is anything I left out please let me know and I'll try to answer those questions

    Thanks
     
  2. green 788

    green 788 Well-Known Member

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    We had two different shooters with the Rapid-Z reticle in Zeiss scopes at the match we had back in September... they both had a lot of trouble hitting the plates beyond 800 yards, and these plates are just over 2 MOA in size...

    You'll be better off dialing for your shots. With a hold-based reticle, temperatures will change your POI enough at long ranges to more than throw you off target center (if you hit your target at all)...

    So go with either a mildot or an MOA reticle, and begin dialing for your dead center zero based on location and conditions... it's the only way to truly be precise.

    Dan
     

  3. SBruce

    SBruce Well-Known Member

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    I agree with above post.

    If you're lucky enough to have a trajectory match the rapidZ at all ranges, then no problem, but everytime we change elevation by a few thousand feet or temp changes by 30° then it is no longer the same match to the reticle as previously shot.

    If we're only shooting to 600 or 700 yds at the same elevation all the time, with a decent BC bullet (.5 or better) the BDC reticles can be very convenient and quick to use. But beyond 700, or even closer with things like a 223; dialing for drops based on the current conditions is the more precise way of doing things.

    I've used both Mil and Moa reticles, and my preference is toward the moa versions. Polls taken here on this site confirm most shooters prefer moa also.
    Only negative people seem to have about the moa that seems legit is that they can appear cluttered when we're using 15X optics or lower. NOT an issue IMO when we're using 20X or more.

    For around $800 or less, Sightron SIII has a 6-24X50 with moa type reticle.
    There are probably others by now, but I am unaware of them. I feel Zeiss has better optics and glass than sightron, but I've only used one of each.

    Nightforce has lots of options in reticles and is a major front runner IMO on reticle designs. Downside is expense and weight, they're about 2 lbs. and twice the $$$ amount you listed.
     
  4. feelinducky

    feelinducky Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the advice. What do you guys think about the zeiss Mil dot reticle? It is a SFP not ffp. I like Zeiss glass and I have an opportunity to get one at a huge discount. I could also just get a turret installed on the Zeiss that I have now and dial it. It may be kinda akward though.
     
  5. SBruce

    SBruce Well-Known Member

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    Guess I'd be more apt to get a turret on the rapid Z, but either way works for sure. Depends moreso on the type of hunting you're doing I guess. 90% of my hunting is medium range and can be relatively quick shots. Usually only get one shot.

    Here's why I'd prefer to keep the reticle you've got. You would still be able to use the BDC for quick shots out to 400 or 500 yds without having to look at a dope card to remember how many mils to hold over. I've got too many rifles to remember with each one what the holdover is at 425 yds and 475 yds. But with the Z, it's already in the scope.

    There's nothin simpler for that "stop and look back one more time" buck than a quick reference for holdover in the scope.

    If you shoot alot of steel and need to call shots/misses by using your reticle, then the mil dot or MOA is better for that purpose. Additionally, if your rangefinder quits in the field, you can use the mil dots with a mil dot master and range things, to an extent anyway. It's more accurate on game to just carry an extra rangefinder and leave it at camp. Shootin steel or anything of absolute known size is where ranging with the reticle is a legitimate quick alternative to rangefinders.
     
  6. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    SBruce's advice is good. So is the scope recommendation.

    I use both MOA and MIL DOT reticles.

    My recommendation is towards MOA and then mostly because the reticle is MOA AND the turrets are MOA.

    MIL - MIL reticle and turrets would be great especially w/0.1 MIL clicks

    Z-Plex, MIL DOT and other similar reticles are set for only the sight-in elevation and atmospheric conditions. To make it work where I hunt, from 3000' to 10000' elevation ya gotta carry nearly a dictionary of charts or something like Shooter.

    For flexibility I find the First Focal Plan MIL reticle the better choice.
     
  7. ICANHITHIMMAN

    ICANHITHIMMAN Well-Known Member

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    I had a lot of trouble dialing my scopes when I first got into this stuff, That all stopped with my adoption of 2 systems. The first was when I switch to a mil/mil ffp optic, in my case a leupold mk4 m5 with 1/10 mill adj and a tmr rectical.

    The second case was when I switch to the Horus system, it also employs a mill based system, you just don't have to dial it. I have 27 mils of elevation at my disposal at a moments notice, there are holds for wind as well. Once you have you firing solution just line up the grids and send it easy day.

    Its a no brainier for me mil/mil, FFP all the way, or at least until I get my mk1 eyeball installed and blue toothed to my shoulder mounted rail gun.
     
  8. feelinducky

    feelinducky Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the replies. I'll take a look at the sightron and I'm leaning toward retrofitting my current zeiss with turrets. Most shots are 400 or less. Do you know the best place to read up on how to use the different reticles?
     
  9. HAMMERHAND

    HAMMERHAND Well-Known Member

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    There's really no need for your cartridge to match the trajectory curve of the rapid-z reticle. Every bullet follows a parabolic curve of some description when it leaves your barrel. On 14X your rapid Z scope is at the calibration standard for the reticle. IF the information is solid that you are putting into the calculator on the website (velocity from a CHRONO), atmospheric conditions, altitude, BC, etc. then you can generate a dope card that will get you banging 18 inches square of steel 1st shot to 800 yards if your input info is legit, and your gun is capable of that kind of accuracy. Lots of things come into play with the rapid Z reticle and you have to put in the time. You MUST get your scope height correct in reference to the center of the bore, you MUST print your calibration group exactly where it says to at the yardage you're sighting in and on level ground. ALSO it is important that you adhere to a shoot-to range, meaning that uphill and downhill shots require less yardage. I find I can hit an average size pumpkin with 1 shot at each 100 yard increment from 300-600 yards with a single shot after calibration, and 18" plate steel from 600-800 with the same single shot. The problem with the longer shots say 600 and beyond is that the reticle is on the larger side so the center crosshairs actually cover up an average pumpkin and the entire vital zone of a pronghorn antelope. I find it sketchy for deer at the 700+ range as well. Elk to 800....no problem, but again its not a matter of slapping the thing on your gun and going...the effort has to be put in to work the reticle to its fullest advantage. Not something that many people take the time to do. I love the clarity of the glass, and bought several scopes from Doug @ camera land with no issues.

    I'm looking for an MOA type reticle to use with a G7 rangefinder, but would really like one in the FFP that didn't get too big to use to 1,000 yards so I can shoot and go. I really like the idea of the nightforce scope and the NP-R1, however you need to have it set at 11 or 22 power to take advantage of MOA, or create some type of intermediate dope card for another magnification, or dial. My shooting situations really require very quick shooting most of the time (where dialing up would mean no-shot, no-animal). I had thought about hollands ART reticles, Sightron SIII, Vortex, March, Valdada, etc. but have zero experience with any of them, and honestly most are out of my price league. Honestly I know there has to be a scope that delivers the goods for less than 2 grand, however nobody seems to highly recommend one.
     
  10. Sandman

    Sandman Member

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    Hammerhand (and everyone else that has experience with using the Rapid Z at different elevations),

    I own a Zeis with a rapid Z. I live in Texas and so far have not had to deal with elevation differences where I hunt. I am planning an elk hunt this year. Max distance I will shoot will be 600 yds. Here is my question. In order to use the rapid Z holdover marks at different elevation and temperature combinations, is it a simple matter of building a "calibration dope chart" using the online calculator? For example, for my caliber at 85 degrees and 500 feet elevation, I set my scope power to 10.5 to align the holdover marks to consistantly hit 10" steel out to 600 yds. If I input 10 degrees and an elevation of 2000' in the online calculator, the correct scope calibration power is 10. So if I were in the mountains at 10 degrees and 2000', I would use a calibration of 10 instead of 10.5. Will this approach work to adjust for different temp/elevation out to ~ 600 yds?

    Thanks

    Sandman
     
  11. HAMMERHAND

    HAMMERHAND Well-Known Member

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    Correct....as long as you put the parameters into the zeiss calculator I have found it within an inch or two accurate up to 700 ish with the different elevations no problem
     
  12. blacknzr1

    blacknzr1 Well-Known Member

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    you do want to dial.
    i use the sightron s3 6-24x50 moa. the moa reticle and moa dials make it easy.
    these scopes are great for being accurate and the price.

    if i had to by another scope id buy the same again