Mil-dot or not: Mil adj. or MOA?

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by alcesgigas, Nov 10, 2011.

  1. alcesgigas

    alcesgigas Well-Known Member

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    I'm just getting into real long range hunting so please forgive if my questions irritate.

    I want to dial the distance to hold the reticule on the target--not guesstimate using holdover--already had a lifetime of that. While my targets are large the range is long and sometimes in poor light, but most times I can shoot from a solid platform. Millet offers their 6-25x56 with a 35mm tube, but only mil-dot reticule. Using a 12" kill zone at 400 to 1400 yards would their scope work?

    And what's the advantages & disadvantages of .1 mill adj. opposed to 1/4 moa?
     
  2. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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    My favorite reticles in order.

    IOR MP-8 with floating dot.

    Leupold TMR

    Leupold mil dot.

    Each of those offers advantages, one of which being that if you miss and spot it, they help you judge how much you need to adjust.

    A scope in the power range you are talking about will certainly work, but for myself I would not buy a Millet. For precision long range shooting on game you need 100% reliability.

    I'd say look at Leupold, IOR, NF or if price is a serious concern look at the vortex vipers.

    the 1/4 mil adjustments are my preference as they are a bit more precise.

    One mil equals about 3.4 MOA so .1mil equals .34 MOA.
     

  3. ICANHITHIMMAN

    ICANHITHIMMAN Well-Known Member

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    I agree that MP8 is very nice, I dont know how they get it so small on a FFP optic. I am running a TMR right now and I like it alot more that then USMC mil dot I use to run. It odscures less of my target and allows for more precise hold overs and ranging.

    I dont know much about millet scopes but from what I have heard I would consider a few others in that price range first. The bushnell ellite or the vortex viper pst, again just what I have heard maybe millet is GTG.
     
  4. Scot E

    Scot E Well-Known Member

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    What cartridge, bullet and velocity are you running?

    A lot of guys like that scope but I don't have any personal experience with it. It gets pretty good reviews at optics talk and has enough adjustment to get you where you want to go at 1400 yards. Dead nuts repeatability and toughness are the most important factors though so you don't want to crimp on optics at the distances you are talking about shooting. The more recoil happy gun you have the less I would personally look at the Millett.

    As far as scopes I would at least get matching reticle and turrets, so MIL/MIL or MOA/MOA. Having a MIL reticle to assist in calling misses then having to dial in MOA is a pain in the butt!

    Despite what some guys will tell you MOA and MIL are both angular measurements so they can be used exactly the same. Most guys get all tied up in the math but if you are really using them right there isn't any math to do unless you are using the reticle to range targets. And I don't so the math is mostly a moot point for me.

    On most scopes MIL's are broken down by 10th's so 10 clicks per MIL.
    Each MOA is broken down approximately in 1/4's so 4 clicks per MOA.

    1 MIL click, 1/10 of a MIL, equals .36 inches.
    1 MOA click, 1/4 of an MOA, equals .26 inches.

    So 1/10 MIL clicks are courser adjustments by .1 of an inch. Even out to distances past 1000 yards 1/10 MIL clicks aren't too course for hunting purposes IMO. If you shoot the really long stuff then you may find an advantage to the finer adjustments MOA provide.

    1 MIL equals 3.6 inches at 100 yards
    1 MOA equals 1.047 inches at 100 yards. Many guys just round the clicks to .25 and MOA to 1 which is why for some the math side is easier with MOA

    I personally like MIL a bit better because it is a lot easier to read a chart that tells me I need to dial 7.2 MIL's compared to needing to dial 24 MOA. Smaller numbers means easier to remember and less chance of mistakes for me anyway. Usually there is more MIL's on 1 revolution of a turret than there is MOA's so that means less turns of the turret which is a time saver and it helps minimize getting lost on what revolution of the turret you are on if your scope doesn't have zero stops.

    If you want to get into the math of it all, and I would suggest you don't, then you will have to decide what math is easier 1/4's or 1/10's.
     
  5. alcesgigas

    alcesgigas Well-Known Member

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    I surely appreciate all this information!

    That being sincerely said I should say that I've read nothing but good stuff about the newer LRS-1 Millets; I've read nothing but great stuff about NF and USO, but before I plunge for that expense I'd like to get some time/experience under my belt with my first long range dedicated rifle. Here's how it's shaping up right now:
    Winchester M70 (375H&H donor) Classic Stainless, squared & lapped, Hart 30" (1.250-1.000") with a Muscle Magnum 4 brake in 338 Edge. I'm still fluid on the rest, but leaning to running 300SMKs around 2830fps--I'll be getting my dies from DE right off...

    However, I'm too fast approaching septuagenarian status and I will need to get a good range finder, PDA, Kestrel, a whole new selection of propellants as I've loaded only for 270 and 375 H&H for many years. I'm in great health and am forced to hunt for meat (God, what a dreadful thing) and moose being my mainstay I must drop them where I can get my--now necessary--equipment to extricate all that poundage. Jeez its taken soooooo long to get the wife sympathizing with me on this horrendously laborious undertaking--she actually comes along to help. Good thing she doesn't read this site; if all goes right in ten years or so all I'll have to do is pull the trigger... She is 15 years younger than me! Amazing what moose and caribou do for you... So I really cannot indulge my predilections overly much--and live.

    But if all this goes as I think it will I've already begun dreaming about a 375CT or AM whizzing those 350SMKs from its 34" barrel--launched from it's 30# heft, NF 5.5-22x56 zero-stop mil-radian perched up top in Murphy SS rings & base. If I got it all right off what's left to dream about?

    But please keep these responses up because every day I find how little I really know. It's great.:D
     
  6. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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    The added info definitely makes it easier to make good recommendations.

    In a heavy recoiling magnum like the .388 edge I absolutely wouldn't suggest going with a cheap scope like the Millett. The odds of having a serious scope failure when it really counts are just too high.

    You can pick up a good used Leupold VX III 6-20x50 for around 700-800.00, or a Mark 4 or IOR tactical 6-24x50 for around 1,000.00.

    You can pick up the vortex viper PST's for quite a bit less than that.

    Just watch Ebay, and the classifieds here and over at sniper's hide and you can get some very good deals on high quality glass and eliminate the gamble.

    With the kind of recoil force of the edge I'd seriously say lean towards the tacical scopes as they are built to handle more shock.
     
  7. Scot E

    Scot E Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the Millets are getting pretty good reviews but I am not sure I have personally read anything with them on a gun like the 338 edge. That is a big recoiling gun. I would personally do some more searching to see if anyone has a good bit of time on a big gun like the edge before you spend the cash. If you would have said something in the 6.5 to lower 30 caliber range I would say go for it but I would be very hesitant to do it on one of the big boys!

    Good luck!
     
  8. alcesgigas

    alcesgigas Well-Known Member

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    In the last hour or so, between chores, I've surfed the 'net reading reviews on the Millet LRS-1. There's so much bad press on these scopes--I couldn't even find the good PR I read day before yesterday. Worse their service would improve if they didn't have any--so many horror stories, months of 'phone calls, missed events, and hunting gone bye-bye. Even if only a tenth of what I've read was true it's enough for me.

    So I'm back in the search for a scope; I know what I want and it's that NF I wrote of earlier. I'm working on a superscheme... I've always depended on Leupolds; there's a VXIII 1.5-5 that I bought in 1987 sitting atop that 375H&H right now--been there since '96--and on two 270s prior to. It's as good as the day I bought it. I needed another M70 270 like a hole in the head, but USRA just had to come out with that Classic Stainless in '92 so I had to brainstorm justification to get it--and the Leupold VXIII 2.5-8 in Talley SS Ultralights that sits there right now. That rifle's accounted for a lot of meat--bears, moose, caribou, and deer too--it, and the Leupold are just as dependable now as they always were. When Leupold came out with their 6x42 multicoat 4 that was the scope I locked down in Conetrol rings (later Sako) on my L61 222 Rem. Mag, but I digress. I've always stressed the best glass--what was I thinking? I guess I deluded myself--the lure of that big 35mm tube belling out to 56mm--free rings and flip open caps too. Thanks guys you saved me from delivering that most heinous of all geriatric insults: There's no fool like an old fool.

    I'm going to seriously investigate the glass options you've all suggested. And--one of you brought up MATH--God help me. Had I made that mistake... I'll be consistent with the mil/mil-dot OR moa/mlr (?).
     
  9. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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    A funny thing happened when I was surfing around.

    Vortex Viper 6.5-20x50 PA V-plex w/sunshade - Sniper's Hide Forums

    If budget is a serious consideration the Vortex Viper would be one scope I'd be willing to gamble on.

    Personally I prefer going with the biggest objective I can get, but this one is for sale at a pretty reasonable price as well.

    http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=248198&Number=2894830#Post2894830

    If you don't mind the focus/parallax adj being on the bell this one isn't a bad deal at all.

    http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2872633#Post2872633
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2011
  10. alcesgigas

    alcesgigas Well-Known Member

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    Excellent find WR--I hadn't looked at used before this thread, mainly because I'm not in a position to buy the scope until after the holidays. The action and barreling is scheduled to commence ASAP, probably this month.

    Last night I continued surfing as suggested and zoned in on Vortex. The scopes look good, the prices make me suspicious, but upon reading the warranty I have no reservations on buying a Vortex PST or Razor HD--used or new. But the latter puts in NF country; just how good is that Razor?

    You may wonder--given my most favorable experience with Leupold--why not get a big VXIII or M4? Two issues: recent and numerous dissatisfied customers regarding quality and consistency, and right now I'm infatuated with new tech and thus am open to "#2 tries harder," to a point.

    And tossed into the mix is a tendency to avail myself of others experience so as to avoid the plenteous pitfalls that, too often, I frequent. With this site--and collective input--I believe I've learned much and plan on continuing. I enjoy this dialogue, Thanks.
     
  11. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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    Don't buy into the online BS. Leupold's quality and customer service are every bit as good today as they were thirty years ago.

    I own leupold's made in every decade from the sixties on and they just get better and better.

    If you really don't mind experimenting though and want to go first class give the IOR's a hard look.

    I've shot some of the best and most expensive scopes ever made and I'll match my IOR's against any scope priced within at least 600.00 of them.

    I'll also mention again I LOVE the MP8 Reticle. As far as I'm concerned it's the best hunting or tactical reticle ever produced. The Horus H37 is a close second.
     
  12. Scot E

    Scot E Well-Known Member

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    If you are thinking about going MIL and FFP then I would strongly encourage you to look at the Super Sniper line by SWFA. They are a different scope company in that they don't really advertise their scopes, except by word of mouth and forums like this, and they only sell them direct. So their price point is excellent! More importantly though is the quality. They have an excellent reputation for durability, precision, and repeatability. On their new scopes, their glass is also superb.

    They don't have some of the extras like zero stops, etc. but they are really good scopes for the money IMO. To compete with them you will need to be looking at NF, IOR type quality.

    Check them out here: SWFA SWFA SS Rifle Scopes SWFA SS Scopes
     
  13. alcesgigas

    alcesgigas Well-Known Member

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    WR you and I must be around the same age--you gave it away with the '60s declaration. Me2. But first came a Weaver 2.5, then a Weaver V1-5; both "clouded up" after a couple of years. Then a 2.75 Redfield; I'd have it today if I didn't have to sell it with its platform, a Winchester 88 (with the real checkering too). So somewhere in the late sixties I got my first Leupold--because the Redfield I wanted was "out of stock." I've never looked back. I'm sold on Leupolds; I just don't want to be stuck on Leupolds (or anything for that matter). Leupold is the constant; all others, including NF and USO, are the variables.

    Now you got me doing more research: IOR, that reticule--M8? I'll have to check back to your commentary.

    Now, regarding the second question: mil or moa? Someone--you or Scot E--posed a question: "...like 1/4s or 1/10s." The latter seems faster (Physics for me instigate dysentery...), easier to remember, and thus yielding greater consistency. So right now I'm listing toward mil-rads. More thoughts?
     
  14. alcesgigas

    alcesgigas Well-Known Member

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    I have to step away from the computer as it's starting to get light and I've a trap line to check. Just so you know I'll be back to pick this up...