Melonite Process

[MontanaRifleman]

Is the melonite process compatible with older actions made with case hardened steel?

Given the temperatures involved, would I be correct to think that small parts/hardware would need to be finished using a different process?

Maybe a better question is: Do you employ melonite as a stand alone finish, or do you use it as a barrel treatment in combination with other types of metal finish?

Best thing to do is call whoever you are going to use and ask them what they will do and won't do. H&M told me they can do pretty much anything that is steel, no aluminum and no springs. Parts must be disassembled. I had all steel parts (except the firing pin) nitirded and I used it as a stand alone finish and I am very happy with the finish.

 

[benchracer]

Best thing to do is call whoever you are going to use and ask them what they will do and won't do. H&M told me they can do pretty much anything that is steel, no aluminum and no springs. Parts must be disassembled. I had all steel parts (except the firing pin) nitirded and I used it as a stand alone finish and I am very happy with the finish.

Good to know. One of the things that appeals to me about this is the possibility of treating the bolt with something that won't be removed by wear and does not cause dimensional changes. I like the idea of not leaving the bolt in the white.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Good to know. One of the things that appeals to me about this is the possibility of treating the bolt with something that won't be removed by wear and does not cause dimensional changes. I like the idea of not leaving the bolt in the white.

I am getting some wear of the black ferrous oxide outside finish layer on the under side of the bolts but the nitride layer will not wear off unless you spend a lot of time with an abrasive lapping it off.

So the lighter color of the steel is showing a little on the underside of the bolt for some reason. Nowhere else on the bolt, receiver or barrel.

 

[shortgrass]

I, for one, have serious reservations about Melonite treating actions. #1, I've never worn an action out. #2, is harder better when it comes to actions? If so, why would it be? There comes a point when "harder" becomes brittle. 4140 and 416R, as heat treated by the mill, are tried and proven for many years. If the material needs to be 'harder' why aren't the action makers, like Remington, using material that's harder to begin with? A few more points harder is still no match for the carbide tooling used in their manufacture. Case hardened actions, like the Mauser '98 require 'blocking' when they're color case hardened. If they're not 'blocked' they tend to twist themselves into a knot upon quenching, you may not even be able to insert the bolt. Every receipt I've got from H&M says "QPQ",,,, quench, polish, quench. I have my doubts even though some of the custom action makers are using the process. I can clearly see improvements in barrel life, and that's what interests me about the process most. There's more to just having the barrel treated, like an hour or sometimes two cleaning the residue from the inside and thats best accomplished before mounting the barrel back on the receiver. So, add that to the cost unless you're doing your own work. I see the Melonite/Black Nitride process more as a process to extend barrel life, not as a 'finish', although I have some of my own that looked good enough I didn't CeraKote them.

 

[Daveinjax]

Does the barrel and action have to be separated or can they treat it assembled ?

 

[elkaholic]

I have a BAT action, Krieger barrel, and Muscle break that are all melonited. I am very pleased with the process so far. I don't have enough rounds through it to tell much about throat erosion yet, but here are some things that I can attest to.
The barrel cleans up very nicely. I gained about 25'/sec. MV. The surface seems impervious to everyhting and has a nice black matte appearance. The action is SILKY smooth.
It is important to match the bare metal finish on the action with the barrel unless you want a contrast, although this is not a big deal unless the barrel has a pretty rough finish. There is no need to chose stainless over chrome moly, IMO, and in fact, the CM is lighter. It is important to REALLY scrub the barrel when you get it back because it will have some stubborn brown crud in it. I used a lot of bore tech and some IOSSO paste.
If the barrel life increases as much as advertised, this stuff is a home run!..........Rich

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Does the barrel and action have to be separated or can they treat it assembled ?

EVERYTHING must be disassembled, barrel, action bolt, shroud. Remove the firing pin, extractors, ejectors and cross pins and all springs.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I am very happy with my actions. The finish is as good or bettetr that any bluing or cerakoat job and much tougher. It is easy to clean and it is smooth. I have not noticed any side effects.

 

[Edd]

There is no need to chose stainless over chrome moly, IMO, and in fact, the CM is lighter.

The difference in weight on a rifle is not enough to matter but CM is heavier. A cubic foot of CM will weigh about 3 pounds more than stainless.

 

[tbrice23]

Thats one big *** barrel.

 

[Edd]

Almost 500 pounds.

 

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Having read all these threads I can't see any down sides as long as it has no cold weather negative aspects .

 

[Trickymissfit]

I, for one, have serious reservations about Melonite treating actions. #1, I've never worn an action out. #2, is harder better when it comes to actions? If so, why would it be? There comes a point when "harder" becomes brittle. 4140 and 416R, as heat treated by the mill, are tried and proven for many years. If the material needs to be 'harder' why aren't the action makers, like Remington, using material that's harder to begin with? A few more points harder is still no match for the carbide tooling used in their manufacture. Case hardened actions, like the Mauser '98 require 'blocking' when they're color case hardened. If they're not 'blocked' they tend to twist themselves into a knot upon quenching, you may not even be able to insert the bolt. Every receipt I've got from H&M says "QPQ",,,, quench, polish, quench. I have my doubts even though some of the custom action makers are using the process. I can clearly see improvements in barrel life, and that's what interests me about the process most. There's more to just having the barrel treated, like an hour or sometimes two cleaning the residue from the inside and thats best accomplished before mounting the barrel back on the receiver. So, add that to the cost unless you're doing your own work. I see the Melonite/Black Nitride process more as a process to extend barrel life, not as a 'finish', although I have some of my own that looked good enough I didn't CeraKote them.

keep in mind that virtually all modern carbon steel actions are built off a 4*** series steel. They can be ordered in as a pretreat steel that will usually Rockwell at 28rc -32rc. Now one can take that piece of pretreat steel and hard turn it (a machine process normally associated with machining something that is hard). This same piece of steel can then be nitrided in one of three forms of the nitride process. I used mostly the gas type and the plasma types, and have not used a salt bath in 20 years. But the salt bath works well. Most of the time I did .025" case or a .035" deep. Takes 29 hours for a .035" case as I remember. There are high speed processes, but the slower it's done the better quality and uniformity. Steel in a pretreat form is ready right out of the box. Have used 4150 (literally tons of it), 4140, 4340, 4350, and a small lot of 4360. Results were similar in each case. Now with a soft piece of 4*** series steel things change a bit. But still is easy to do. You can have the steel blank cut with extra stock here and there, and left alone in critically finished areas. Then send out and have it carburized and hardened. (also does well with 8620) Then recut the blank a second time. This makes the areas that need to be hardened stay hard while the rest is machined away (like a bolt seating area). The hardest you'll ever see out of a 4*** steel is 47rc-50rc without the nitride process. Each method has it's own set of advantages, as well as it's own set of demons. Trust me the furnace operator and piece of equipment has everything to do with the process. I had access to about a hundred nitride setups ranging in size from three feet in diameter to a hundred feet long.

Now cutting a piece of nitrided hardened piece of steel is not all that big a deal contrary to popular belief. You need a lathe with a heavyduty carriage and bearing pack in the headstock. Kinda hard on a Bridgeport mill, but have done it. Mostly depends on how deep the case is. A .015" case is not much to worry about, but a .035" one shows it's ugly head. I used carbide inserts that were made for hard turning very hard steels (Valenite), and were coated. Still a diamond insert was better, and ceramic makes short work of it. End mills are another story, and carbide is a must. Drilling and tapping holes is easy, and you simply break thru the case with a carbide center drill. After that everything is soft. Forget reaming processes unless you find away to remove the hard metal case. Recrowning a barrel should be pretty easy with the right inserts.
gary

 

[shortgrass]

Tricky, I turn and mill 4130 & 4350 , in their hardened state, every day. Roughing cuts on the lathe .06 deep @ .008-.01 I.P.R. Most all milling is done on CNC mills, machines so much larger than Bridgeports the only compairison is they both use end mill type cutters, some inserted some not. C6 brazed carbide easily cuts through Melonited surfaces , like a barrel crowns. Good inserts, even better. My question is why would an action need to be harder? Most items that take a "shock" are designed to have a certain amount of "spring back" to them, so they return to their original shape (like an axle does). I think if I read H&Ms' policys correctly you'll find that they claim no responsibility for the suitability or application of the part(s) being treated. In the past Meoniting was mainly used on bearing surfaces (the rifled bore of a barrel is a "bearing surface"as are crank shafts and cam shafts in large, industrial applications). 4140/416R can be ordered from the mill in any hardness obtainable, as long as the order is large enough. By what I read on the boards, few understand that modern bolt actions are made of pre-hardened stock (so are barrels), not hardened after they are machined. The uneven sections would allow too much deflection if hardened after machining. I'm not against advances in technology, I'm just questioning "does an action need to be any harder than it already is?".