Masters of Reloading......my 300WM is not shooting good.

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by AtownBcat, May 23, 2009.

  1. AtownBcat

    AtownBcat Well-Known Member

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    Hey guys im having trouble getting my 300WM to group worth a crap.

    Here are the details:
    First I used a "lead sled" to try and take me out of the picture....

    The gun in a Remington 700SPS. I have had the barrel floated and the action bedded. The trigger has been worked and set to 3lbs. The scope is a vx-3 8.5 to 25

    Im using Win brass
    and BR-2 primers

    The first pic is:
    180gr accubonds
    75.5 gr of r22
    and the bullet is seated .010 off the lands
    [​IMG]
    The next pic is the same except the bullet is seated .035 off the lands
    [​IMG]

    This pic is
    200gr accubonds
    70.5gr of H4831
    seated .010 off the lands
    [​IMG]

    and you guessed it the same except .035 off the lands
    and i only had time for 3 shots before i ran out of light

    [​IMG]

    I realize that alot of youy guys do some pretty fancy stuff but i was really only trying to get it to shoot a 1moa group. I will be honest i didn't "work up that powder charge...i just used what the nosler book said was the most accurate...again was hopeing for a 1moa group..and them fine tune.

    All shot @100 yards

    It was about 85 degrees and i waited 2-3 minutes between shots.....remember im still new be gental.

    thanks
    ryan
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2009
  2. AJ Peacock

    AJ Peacock Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes a rifle likes hotter loads and sometimes milder. The load's you are shooting are in the medium range (around 56k psi or so). I'd work up a bit and see if it settles down.

    My preferred method of working up a load is to shoot over a chronograph and shoot loads from the low to the high in .3gr increments (essentially the ladder method). I'll then look at the velocities and the vertical dispersion. If I have a set of 3 consecutive shots that are very near in velocity and also very nearly the same impact point 'vertically', I'll choose that level of loading and play around with the seating depth. I had a 7RM that shot the best at the highest pressure and was around 1.5moa at lower pressures.

    Also, have you really cleaned the barrel lately?

    Hope this helps,
    AJ
     

  3. AtownBcat

    AtownBcat Well-Known Member

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    thanks for the reply...but what you said actually brings up another subject that i have had a hard time wrapping my mind around...you mentioned that first you will play with the charge and get it dialed in..then play with the seating depth. Well doesnt this change the load? I mean if you seat the bullet deeper it would increase pressure right...or am i missing something?
     
  4. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    Ryan,

    AJ is giving good advice.

    Just to confuse you a bit I'll thrown in a couple of cents worth.

    That last load "looks" the most promising in my eyes.

    I see a bit of vertical dispersion but more horizontal dispersion in the first groups.

    As AJ said some like hotter and some like it cooler.

    Based on the way you are going at it, I'd select the 200gr accubond load with
    70.5gr of H4831 seated .035 off the lands.

    I'd then, if you have room I'd load 5 with an added grain of powder and another 5 with a grain less. If the dispersion switches from horizontal to vertical somewhere in that range of powder weights is the load that will most closely approach a symmetrical/uniform group.

    However, I'm pretty much like AJ, I want all of the velocity that I can get and still be accurate. His method, which I also use, helps find the nodes in about as many shots as you have already shot in those 4 groups.

    No sense burning anymore powder and using up barrel life as one needs to, though it is just fun to shoot.:)

    PS: The barrel cleaning question was a hint. Use a good copper remover is another hint.
     
  5. AJ Peacock

    AJ Peacock Well-Known Member

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    You are getting the idea. I play with the seating depth in .005" increments. I'll normally start at .015" from lands and do my ladder tests. I don't normally go any further from the lands that about .025", so the rise in pressure isn't normally too significant. But I still continue to shoot it over the chrono, so I can immediately see any drastic changes.

    AJ
     
  6. Nomad

    Nomad Banned

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    Jul 1, 2007
    Do you have a round count on the barrel?
    If over 1000 would check out the barrel
    Items are hard to find for reloading but RL25 with 200 sierra mk and gk
    have shot well in four 300 wins that have used this load which is
    76.5 of reloader, 215M, win cases with the 200 by sierra tried the load
    using the accubound not as good a group....
     
  7. 338 LEGEND

    338 LEGEND Well-Known Member

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    I have a 300WM that loves rl-22 and 180 gr accubonds, I dont like to give powder charges but seeing you have already shot 75 grains here goes.
    74.0 gr RL-22 WITH 180GR ACCUBONDS and a fed-215 primer. I would start .010 of the lands and move in .002 incerments. I have shot this load in three rifles and all shot better then moa at 100 yards just had to play with the bullet depth, all were with in .010 of the lands.
     
  8. johnnyk

    johnnyk Well-Known Member

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    Ryan,
    I'm guessing your rifle is still pretty new. Give the barrel a chance to season. Give it a good break-in/cleaning routine. The first .300 WM Sendero that I owned shot about like yours is doing. I probably ran around 100 rds through it before it started coming around. I was starting to worry because I already had a Sendero in 7mmRM that was shooting lights out. I couldn't understand why this one wouldn't shoot. Some barrels take longer to come around than others.
    The .300WM that I currently have shoots great with 180gn Ballistic Tips and 69.0gn H4350 (.3's). It wasn't the fastest load but was the most accurate with this powder. I then tried RL22 with the same bullet and it wouldn't group for crap. I tried from 73.0 up to 76.0gn and accuracy never got better than .675".
    My stepson gave me a box of 180gn SMK's for my anniversary and with 75.5gn's of RL22/9.5M they shoot in the .3's. I shot five rounds today and velocities were 3121/3123/3124/3132/3163 (avg.3133).
    I pretty much run all my bullets for all my rifles .010" off the LaG's, unless it's a VLD type or just too short to touch. I usually play around with the powder charge or type (burn rate) until I find one that vibrates the right way everytime :) Hang in there man, it will get better. JohnnyK.
     
  9. AtownBcat

    AtownBcat Well-Known Member

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    The barrel is still in good shape with only 50-75 rounds down the tube.

    I clean it after around 20-25 shots...i have been using Hoppes #9...is this good enough?

    Will you please explain what the direction of the movement tells you. If it as a vert movement vs a horizontal movement...like this one on my sons 308 i have been working on. It is a remington 700P, 168 grain moly a-max. 44gr varget,seated .035. 5 shot group.
    [​IMG]

    thanks again for the info.
     
  10. AtownBcat

    AtownBcat Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the input...I have had 0 luck finding federal primers....i have 800 BR-2's....how much difference should i expect?
     
  11. AtownBcat

    AtownBcat Well-Known Member

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    It is still pretty new and it sounds like you have found a couple great loads....i do have some SGK's in 180....not sure how much the difference is compared to the SMK's.....
     
  12. WRG

    WRG Well-Known Member

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    AtownBcat,

    Everybody has their own way of working up loads and I'm no different. How I do it is, I seat the bullets OAL at max SAMMI spec while trying to find a powder that will give me a grouping that is 1.5" CTC "center to center" or better. I will choose three powders that are known to perform best for the caliber and bullet weight that I'm working with. In the case of the 300wm IMR4831, RL-22, RL-19 all will do the job as well as many others but nine times out of ten your rifle will prefer one better over the others. Keeping in mind the bullets BC and the volocity needed for that bullet to perform is key. Like others have said you really need to develope loads over a chronograph or your just guessing and wasting time & money. If it's at all possible you may want to try WLRM primers along side those BR2 your using. I have had much better velocity SD/ES with the WLRM primers in my 300wm. Once I have found a powder that is exceptable then I will work on the seating depth. But first you will need to figure out your rifles free bore before hand so you know your limit and to make sure you can chamber the round from the mag.

    While I had the bullet seated at SAMMI spec I took a "ojive measurement" for future referance. I then take that measurement and move the bullet 0.010 closer to the lands until it starts to group tighter "if they will". If they won't that rifle won't shoot those bullets and you need to move on to another bullet. I find more often that not that a ballistic tip / boat tail bullet will shoot better for obvious reasons but you also have to consider the game you will be hunting. If this is a Whitetail load your working up the BTBT will work perfectly. I shoot only Barnes TTSX or Nosler BT bullets.

    Are these the only bullets you have shot through this barrel and did it get a proper break in?

    All new barrels need to be "home registered" if it is to shoot right for the life of the barrel! If you only have 50 - 75 rounds through it I would do a proper break-in procedure with some cheap copper jacketed bullets first. As far as cleaning goes Hopps#9 does not clean moly or copper from a barrel it cleans carbon only! You need to use a solvent that does. Moly magic made by Bore tech will do the job. A good copper cleaner is Sweets. Clean the barrel totally free of moly, carbon and any copper before starting the break-in for best results. Like johnnyK said some barrels may require 100 to as many as 200 rounds before they settle in. Once the copper fouling drops off your barrel should be properly broken in.

    Hope this helps

    WRG
     
  13. 338 LEGEND

    338 LEGEND Well-Known Member

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    Give the br-2 primers a try with the 74.0 gr of RL-22 should work alright. let me know how it turns out.
     
  14. MontanaRifleman

    MontanaRifleman Well-Known Member

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    AtownBcat,

    I have a Sako 85 Finnlight in 300 WSM that is "guaranteed" to shoot sub MOA 5 shot groups. It doesn't. It's been to the factory once and came back with a "computer generated target" that said it fired a .9 MOA, 5 shot group. I have tried numerous (dozens) of handload and factory combinations in this rifle and my results are close to what you are posting. The rifle just flat out does not shoot much better than my Ruger Redhawk. And it's not me. I have shot tight groups out of other rifles that cost a lot less and I had freind who is a fairly good shot shoot the rifle with the same load as me. His 5 shot group with the same ammo was about 0.15 better than my group and still over the 1 MOA Sako guarantee. Bottom line... this rifle just does not shoot. And "maybe" that's the problem with yours?

    One very important thing to remember in this game is that, not every rifle shoots the same as another with a particular load. The Nosler/Barnes/Hodgden.... etc., loading manuals and guides are nothing more than relative references. When developing a load you should always start at a conservative low beginning point. From there, you should work up to your max.

    So here is where things get interesting... What is max? Some people migh tuse a chronograph and some might use other signs. My concern with chronographs and velocity is that there a many variables that play into it. Not the least of which is what particular chrony are you using and how accurate is it? If you spend all day at the range, shooting one load through the same rifle you will et varying velocites, guaranteed. This is because of different light and heat conditions... not ot mention the difference between different makes and models of chronys... and what I recently found out, as in the last week, battery strength and life. When I switched batteries, my velociteis jumped 50 fps. I personally use indicators like bilt stiffness, cratered primers, etc... however, these are not completely reliable indicators either, but so far I haven't blasted my face off yet.

    Reloading is a complex game and there are a lot of variables in it.

    IMO, your groups dont look like you have a problem with recoil. They look very similar to mine but after shooting dozens of groups in my rifle they have been even more sporadic, and that is trying a number of powder, bullet, seating depth combinations, along with factory ammo.

    Again, the manuals and online ballistic chats are only guides. Dont forget, the lawyers of these companies will encourage hem to be as "safe" as possible.... but on the other hand, dont blow your rifle and your face up.

    Oh yeah... I broke my barrel in. It didn't foul as much, but it didn't shoot any better.

    Regards,

    -MR
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2009