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<blockquote data-quote="Fiftydriver" data-source="post: 602039" data-attributes="member: 10"><p>I am not endorsing or disclaiming the old '06 but I do want to comment on velocity and its effects on penetration. I used to be a serious handgun hunter and ranged from using everything from traditional revolvers to highly specialized bolt action single shot handguns. I really got hooked on big bore revolvers and got into some crowds that used these things on some pretty heavy critters including cape buffs, water buffs and even elephants.</p><p> </p><p>Many years ago a discussion came up that a properly loaded big bore revolver in 475 Linebaugh would kill heavy game just as easily as a 458 Win Mag. Talk about a fire storm that comment started. It all came to a head when a fellow that wrote for sixgunner magazine did a test. He took several of the very best heavy and dangerous game rifles. I believe he tested the 45-70, 375 H&H, 458 Win Mag, 470 Nitro and I believe 500 Nitro.</p><p> </p><p>With all of these rifles, a steel jacketed solid bullet was used for penetration tests.</p><p> </p><p>For handguns, I beleive he tested the 44 Mag, Heavy loaded 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 475 and 500 Linebaughs. </p><p> </p><p>With the handguns, all fired out of traditional revolvers and loaded with at that time, custom heat treated hard case lead bullets made by Cast Performance.</p><p> </p><p>Now, this was easily over a decade ago so the fine details escape me but the test was done at closer range, I am thinking it was 30 to 50 yards and all were fired into the same penetration media which I believe was a saturated newsprint in a penetration box.</p><p> </p><p>What was found was that velocity had very little if nothing to do with penetration. In fact, the handguns penetrated better when velocity was in the 1100 to 1300 fps range. So pushing a given bullet faster did not lead to deeper penetration, in fact it often reduced penetration results. Higher velocity also produced more variation from the original penetration path. A cast performance bullet driven to around 1200 fps penetrated very deep and very straight out of all the handguns. Now, the heavier the bullet the deeper it penetrated. </p><p> </p><p>The meplat also made a difference in penetration, the wider the meplat such as with the Wide Long Nose bullet design had the least penetration for a given caliber and bullet weight. That said they also produced the largest permanent wound channel. </p><p> </p><p>The smallest meplat also did not produce the deepest penetration and also tended to vary off original penetration line. THe best performing were the Long Flat Nose designs which had meplats of medium size for each caliber.</p><p> </p><p>The most impressive thing was that the 454, 475 and 500 handguns penetrated JUST as deeply as the 458 Win Mag and 470 Nitro and far exceeded the 45-70 and 375. The 500 Nitro outpenetrated all the handguns but I do not think that was a suprise to anyone but it did not outpenetrate the big handguns by much.</p><p> </p><p>On average, the big bore handguns with the LFN heat treated, Cast Performance bullets penetrated straighter then the much higher velocity rifle rounds. While temporary wound channels were larger with all the rifle rounds (Because of higher velocity), the permanent wound channels were very similiar to the big bore handguns.</p><p> </p><p>So why do I bring this up.......</p><p> </p><p>The 375 with its best loads produce FAR more energy then any of these handguns yet in nearly every case, the big bore handguns of 45 cal or larger far out penetrated the the old H&H which has a very good track record with most african hunters. </p><p> </p><p>I am sure most would say that while the 375 may not be ideal for buffs, when used properly, it is certainly up to the challange. Yet I am sure that most that would use the 375 would instantly say that you would be crazy to use these big bore HANDGUNs on dangerous game yet all of them, when used with the right bullets, will far exceed the penetration ability and permanent wound channel peformance of the 375.....</p><p> </p><p>Again, back to the old days, thousands of elephants were cleanly killed with one shot using 6.5mm Swedes and 7mm Mauser rounds.</p><p> </p><p>My comments that the '06 could easily kill a buff at 500 yards need to be clarified. You drive a 30 cal bullet through both lungs and the buff WILL die from that wound and it will not take all that long. WOuld the buff have enough time to charge you, YEP, and likely stomp you into a greasy spot but it will certainly kill the buff.</p><p> </p><p>Would an '06 be able to penetrate enough to take the spine out of a buff, certainly with the right bullet and thus the buff would be incapacitated and harmess to the smart hunter. Would the buff be dead, no, could he stomp you, no so a fallow up shot would be needed, just as many animals that are taken with the high shoulder shot.</p><p> </p><p>Would the '06 penetrate to the brain on a buff, with most angles yes and with the right bullet. Is the brain shot a viable dangerous game vital target, certainly, would it be at 500 yards, well, that up for debate and dependant on the rifle and the guy behind the rifle.</p><p> </p><p>Is the '06 a stopping rifle, NO. Would you take a 30-06 to hunt buffs at close range, NO but its a likely fact that the 30-06 would perform better at longer range on these game animals then it would at close range.</p><p> </p><p>Back to the original question, could the '06 kill a water buff, certainly and in the hands of a quality shooter, that could place his shot precisely, I would not be surpised to see the results that were shown on the TV show.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Fiftydriver, post: 602039, member: 10"] I am not endorsing or disclaiming the old '06 but I do want to comment on velocity and its effects on penetration. I used to be a serious handgun hunter and ranged from using everything from traditional revolvers to highly specialized bolt action single shot handguns. I really got hooked on big bore revolvers and got into some crowds that used these things on some pretty heavy critters including cape buffs, water buffs and even elephants. Many years ago a discussion came up that a properly loaded big bore revolver in 475 Linebaugh would kill heavy game just as easily as a 458 Win Mag. Talk about a fire storm that comment started. It all came to a head when a fellow that wrote for sixgunner magazine did a test. He took several of the very best heavy and dangerous game rifles. I believe he tested the 45-70, 375 H&H, 458 Win Mag, 470 Nitro and I believe 500 Nitro. With all of these rifles, a steel jacketed solid bullet was used for penetration tests. For handguns, I beleive he tested the 44 Mag, Heavy loaded 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 475 and 500 Linebaughs. With the handguns, all fired out of traditional revolvers and loaded with at that time, custom heat treated hard case lead bullets made by Cast Performance. Now, this was easily over a decade ago so the fine details escape me but the test was done at closer range, I am thinking it was 30 to 50 yards and all were fired into the same penetration media which I believe was a saturated newsprint in a penetration box. What was found was that velocity had very little if nothing to do with penetration. In fact, the handguns penetrated better when velocity was in the 1100 to 1300 fps range. So pushing a given bullet faster did not lead to deeper penetration, in fact it often reduced penetration results. Higher velocity also produced more variation from the original penetration path. A cast performance bullet driven to around 1200 fps penetrated very deep and very straight out of all the handguns. Now, the heavier the bullet the deeper it penetrated. The meplat also made a difference in penetration, the wider the meplat such as with the Wide Long Nose bullet design had the least penetration for a given caliber and bullet weight. That said they also produced the largest permanent wound channel. The smallest meplat also did not produce the deepest penetration and also tended to vary off original penetration line. THe best performing were the Long Flat Nose designs which had meplats of medium size for each caliber. The most impressive thing was that the 454, 475 and 500 handguns penetrated JUST as deeply as the 458 Win Mag and 470 Nitro and far exceeded the 45-70 and 375. The 500 Nitro outpenetrated all the handguns but I do not think that was a suprise to anyone but it did not outpenetrate the big handguns by much. On average, the big bore handguns with the LFN heat treated, Cast Performance bullets penetrated straighter then the much higher velocity rifle rounds. While temporary wound channels were larger with all the rifle rounds (Because of higher velocity), the permanent wound channels were very similiar to the big bore handguns. So why do I bring this up....... The 375 with its best loads produce FAR more energy then any of these handguns yet in nearly every case, the big bore handguns of 45 cal or larger far out penetrated the the old H&H which has a very good track record with most african hunters. I am sure most would say that while the 375 may not be ideal for buffs, when used properly, it is certainly up to the challange. Yet I am sure that most that would use the 375 would instantly say that you would be crazy to use these big bore HANDGUNs on dangerous game yet all of them, when used with the right bullets, will far exceed the penetration ability and permanent wound channel peformance of the 375..... Again, back to the old days, thousands of elephants were cleanly killed with one shot using 6.5mm Swedes and 7mm Mauser rounds. My comments that the '06 could easily kill a buff at 500 yards need to be clarified. You drive a 30 cal bullet through both lungs and the buff WILL die from that wound and it will not take all that long. WOuld the buff have enough time to charge you, YEP, and likely stomp you into a greasy spot but it will certainly kill the buff. Would an '06 be able to penetrate enough to take the spine out of a buff, certainly with the right bullet and thus the buff would be incapacitated and harmess to the smart hunter. Would the buff be dead, no, could he stomp you, no so a fallow up shot would be needed, just as many animals that are taken with the high shoulder shot. Would the '06 penetrate to the brain on a buff, with most angles yes and with the right bullet. Is the brain shot a viable dangerous game vital target, certainly, would it be at 500 yards, well, that up for debate and dependant on the rifle and the guy behind the rifle. Is the '06 a stopping rifle, NO. Would you take a 30-06 to hunt buffs at close range, NO but its a likely fact that the 30-06 would perform better at longer range on these game animals then it would at close range. Back to the original question, could the '06 kill a water buff, certainly and in the hands of a quality shooter, that could place his shot precisely, I would not be surpised to see the results that were shown on the TV show. [/QUOTE]
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