LR Water Buffalo
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ishootkittens
Well-Known Member
Before to many feathers get ruffled or puffed outThe question the OP was asking was bascially does a '06 have enough energy? Not should I take my 06 or 416 Rigby "WATER BUFFALO" hunting. It was just a basic energy question. And as I, Mr. Allen and others stated , yes. But a BIG BUT. Besause if you miss sticking it in the ear or spine nope, not going to fall over drt.
Now, the basis of the OP's Question came from the second installment of the Snipers program ran on History Channel this past weekend. If you didn't catch it the sniper shot a W.buff at like 700 plus. it fell over dead exposing 2 Viet Cong carrying AK's. He then killed them both as they stood there beside a dead, maimed, or otherwise unable to stand and plow fields W.Buff.
No LR water buff hunting planned, I don't believe. Just a simple energy and could it be done question.
Gene
Thanks for clearing that up! I guess I should have put that in my original post. Im glad someone besides me watches the history channel. Im 21 years old and I feel like an old man sitting here on a saturday (on my ***) watching the history channel. haha but no, I dont plan on actually hunting these things. They dont appeal to me at all and I sure as hell wouldnt take a .30-06 with me! haha but I was just wondering if it could be done... now i know. Thanks guys
Shumba
Well-Known Member
Before to many feathers get ruffled or puffed out
Now, the basis of the OP's Question came from the second installment of the Snipers program ran on History Channel this past weekend. If you didn't catch it the sniper shot a W.buff at like 700 plus. it fell over dead exposing 2 Viet Cong carrying AK's. He then killed them both as they stood there beside a dead, maimed, or otherwise unable to stand and plow fields W.Buff.
No LR water buff hunting planned, I don't believe. Just a simple energy and could it be done question.
Gene
Kirby hit the nail on the head with the statement that it is all about penetration and shot placement, however; with the caveat that the projectile is designed to penetrate, in a straight line (non spire pointed, preferably a fat radiused meplat) and fired from a cartridge with enough retained velocity to facilitate this penetration.
With that lets look at some facts about this cartridge, penetration and composition of a asiatic buffalo. The Australian water buffalo is roughly 36-42"+ in width across the widest part of the chest. A broad side shot needs to penetrate through BOTH lungs for a reliable kill. I have recovered an absessed .458 bullet from the lung of a Cape Buffalo. A wound that penetrated one lung and had scarred up and healed up around the bullet, with the buffalo living only to be shot by myself years later. With this we need penetration of over 30" to reliably penetrate both lungs. These large animals can easily live for days and ultimately survive indefinately with the deflation of one lung. This does not account for hitting heavy bone on the way in. Other killing shots would be of course CNS or major circulatory system interruption. For the sake of this argument let us look at a lung shot as the largest vital area.
Mike LaGrange former Zimbabwean game ranger and elephant control officer with over 4000 elephants killed by himself during his tenure, wrote a book titled "Ballistics in Perspective" wherein he conducted experiments on penetration of all popular standard sporting cartridges up to the largest dangerous game cartridges.
The 30-06 with the highest sectional density bullets of 220 g. Steel core copper jacketed "solids" we're fired from a distance of 30 feet at a muzzle velocity of 2420 fps, into a media used to simulate the thick skinned, hydrostatic shock, absorbing properties of buffalo and elephant flesh, sans impact with heavy bone. The 30-06 averaged a penetration depth of 39".
39 inces of straight line penetration at a distance of 30 feet. So now we take a 38" deep buffalo at 1500 feet, 50 times the distance of the simulated penetration test and a penetration depth of 30"+ is needed. it just does not seem too favorable that any shot that encounters moving muscles, bone etc...would have but the most remote chance of adequately penetrating to the depth needed to reliably damage, to the point of quick death, the vital organs of a buffalo.
Of course this is theory and simulated penetration tests. However tests conducted by a group of men who amongst them have killed over 10,000 of the largest living creatures on earth (elephants) with a more varied assortment of rifles and projectiles than many of us have ever had the opportunity to shoot. I myself have fired over 35, 570g 500 Nitro Express solids into buffalo, elephant and hippo at ranges never to exceed 50 yards and have NEVER had a bullet exit on any of these animals.
So is it possible to pull off this 500 yark buffalo kill shot with a 30-06? Of course anything is possible. Is it realistic? I would say unaquivically NO. Maybe it's time to call Mythbusters!
Hope some find this info useful.
Im glad someone besides me watches the history channel. Im 21 years old and I feel like an old man sitting here on a saturday (on my ***) watching the history channel.
Hey, I'm twice your age and don't feel like a old man. Well, not everyday. Wish I'd of sat at home on a Saturday's more often. Women and parting waste alot of money that could be spent on more important things, like GUNS and hunting trips.
Gene
Hey, I'm twice your age and don't feel like a old man. Well, not everyday
. Wish I'd of sat at home on a Saturday's more often. Women and parting waste alot of money that could be spent on more important things, like GUNS and hunting trips.Gene
captacademy
Well-Known Member
Same here, I am also twice your age and enjoy watching the history ch and military ch. Great
entertainment value when I have time to slow down and relax. I guess I really never considered myself old! Hahahahahaha
entertainment value when I have time to slow down and relax. I guess I really never considered myself old! Hahahahahaha
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
I am not endorsing or disclaiming the old '06 but I do want to comment on velocity and its effects on penetration. I used to be a serious handgun hunter and ranged from using everything from traditional revolvers to highly specialized bolt action single shot handguns. I really got hooked on big bore revolvers and got into some crowds that used these things on some pretty heavy critters including cape buffs, water buffs and even elephants.
Many years ago a discussion came up that a properly loaded big bore revolver in 475 Linebaugh would kill heavy game just as easily as a 458 Win Mag. Talk about a fire storm that comment started. It all came to a head when a fellow that wrote for sixgunner magazine did a test. He took several of the very best heavy and dangerous game rifles. I believe he tested the 45-70, 375 H&H, 458 Win Mag, 470 Nitro and I believe 500 Nitro.
With all of these rifles, a steel jacketed solid bullet was used for penetration tests.
For handguns, I beleive he tested the 44 Mag, Heavy loaded 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 475 and 500 Linebaughs.
With the handguns, all fired out of traditional revolvers and loaded with at that time, custom heat treated hard case lead bullets made by Cast Performance.
Now, this was easily over a decade ago so the fine details escape me but the test was done at closer range, I am thinking it was 30 to 50 yards and all were fired into the same penetration media which I believe was a saturated newsprint in a penetration box.
What was found was that velocity had very little if nothing to do with penetration. In fact, the handguns penetrated better when velocity was in the 1100 to 1300 fps range. So pushing a given bullet faster did not lead to deeper penetration, in fact it often reduced penetration results. Higher velocity also produced more variation from the original penetration path. A cast performance bullet driven to around 1200 fps penetrated very deep and very straight out of all the handguns. Now, the heavier the bullet the deeper it penetrated.
The meplat also made a difference in penetration, the wider the meplat such as with the Wide Long Nose bullet design had the least penetration for a given caliber and bullet weight. That said they also produced the largest permanent wound channel.
The smallest meplat also did not produce the deepest penetration and also tended to vary off original penetration line. THe best performing were the Long Flat Nose designs which had meplats of medium size for each caliber.
The most impressive thing was that the 454, 475 and 500 handguns penetrated JUST as deeply as the 458 Win Mag and 470 Nitro and far exceeded the 45-70 and 375. The 500 Nitro outpenetrated all the handguns but I do not think that was a suprise to anyone but it did not outpenetrate the big handguns by much.
On average, the big bore handguns with the LFN heat treated, Cast Performance bullets penetrated straighter then the much higher velocity rifle rounds. While temporary wound channels were larger with all the rifle rounds (Because of higher velocity), the permanent wound channels were very similiar to the big bore handguns.
So why do I bring this up.......
The 375 with its best loads produce FAR more energy then any of these handguns yet in nearly every case, the big bore handguns of 45 cal or larger far out penetrated the the old H&H which has a very good track record with most african hunters.
I am sure most would say that while the 375 may not be ideal for buffs, when used properly, it is certainly up to the challange. Yet I am sure that most that would use the 375 would instantly say that you would be crazy to use these big bore HANDGUNs on dangerous game yet all of them, when used with the right bullets, will far exceed the penetration ability and permanent wound channel peformance of the 375.....
Again, back to the old days, thousands of elephants were cleanly killed with one shot using 6.5mm Swedes and 7mm Mauser rounds.
My comments that the '06 could easily kill a buff at 500 yards need to be clarified. You drive a 30 cal bullet through both lungs and the buff WILL die from that wound and it will not take all that long. WOuld the buff have enough time to charge you, YEP, and likely stomp you into a greasy spot but it will certainly kill the buff.
Would an '06 be able to penetrate enough to take the spine out of a buff, certainly with the right bullet and thus the buff would be incapacitated and harmess to the smart hunter. Would the buff be dead, no, could he stomp you, no so a fallow up shot would be needed, just as many animals that are taken with the high shoulder shot.
Would the '06 penetrate to the brain on a buff, with most angles yes and with the right bullet. Is the brain shot a viable dangerous game vital target, certainly, would it be at 500 yards, well, that up for debate and dependant on the rifle and the guy behind the rifle.
Is the '06 a stopping rifle, NO. Would you take a 30-06 to hunt buffs at close range, NO but its a likely fact that the 30-06 would perform better at longer range on these game animals then it would at close range.
Back to the original question, could the '06 kill a water buff, certainly and in the hands of a quality shooter, that could place his shot precisely, I would not be surpised to see the results that were shown on the TV show.
Many years ago a discussion came up that a properly loaded big bore revolver in 475 Linebaugh would kill heavy game just as easily as a 458 Win Mag. Talk about a fire storm that comment started. It all came to a head when a fellow that wrote for sixgunner magazine did a test. He took several of the very best heavy and dangerous game rifles. I believe he tested the 45-70, 375 H&H, 458 Win Mag, 470 Nitro and I believe 500 Nitro.
With all of these rifles, a steel jacketed solid bullet was used for penetration tests.
For handguns, I beleive he tested the 44 Mag, Heavy loaded 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 475 and 500 Linebaughs.
With the handguns, all fired out of traditional revolvers and loaded with at that time, custom heat treated hard case lead bullets made by Cast Performance.
Now, this was easily over a decade ago so the fine details escape me but the test was done at closer range, I am thinking it was 30 to 50 yards and all were fired into the same penetration media which I believe was a saturated newsprint in a penetration box.
What was found was that velocity had very little if nothing to do with penetration. In fact, the handguns penetrated better when velocity was in the 1100 to 1300 fps range. So pushing a given bullet faster did not lead to deeper penetration, in fact it often reduced penetration results. Higher velocity also produced more variation from the original penetration path. A cast performance bullet driven to around 1200 fps penetrated very deep and very straight out of all the handguns. Now, the heavier the bullet the deeper it penetrated.
The meplat also made a difference in penetration, the wider the meplat such as with the Wide Long Nose bullet design had the least penetration for a given caliber and bullet weight. That said they also produced the largest permanent wound channel.
The smallest meplat also did not produce the deepest penetration and also tended to vary off original penetration line. THe best performing were the Long Flat Nose designs which had meplats of medium size for each caliber.
The most impressive thing was that the 454, 475 and 500 handguns penetrated JUST as deeply as the 458 Win Mag and 470 Nitro and far exceeded the 45-70 and 375. The 500 Nitro outpenetrated all the handguns but I do not think that was a suprise to anyone but it did not outpenetrate the big handguns by much.
On average, the big bore handguns with the LFN heat treated, Cast Performance bullets penetrated straighter then the much higher velocity rifle rounds. While temporary wound channels were larger with all the rifle rounds (Because of higher velocity), the permanent wound channels were very similiar to the big bore handguns.
So why do I bring this up.......
The 375 with its best loads produce FAR more energy then any of these handguns yet in nearly every case, the big bore handguns of 45 cal or larger far out penetrated the the old H&H which has a very good track record with most african hunters.
I am sure most would say that while the 375 may not be ideal for buffs, when used properly, it is certainly up to the challange. Yet I am sure that most that would use the 375 would instantly say that you would be crazy to use these big bore HANDGUNs on dangerous game yet all of them, when used with the right bullets, will far exceed the penetration ability and permanent wound channel peformance of the 375.....
Again, back to the old days, thousands of elephants were cleanly killed with one shot using 6.5mm Swedes and 7mm Mauser rounds.
My comments that the '06 could easily kill a buff at 500 yards need to be clarified. You drive a 30 cal bullet through both lungs and the buff WILL die from that wound and it will not take all that long. WOuld the buff have enough time to charge you, YEP, and likely stomp you into a greasy spot but it will certainly kill the buff.
Would an '06 be able to penetrate enough to take the spine out of a buff, certainly with the right bullet and thus the buff would be incapacitated and harmess to the smart hunter. Would the buff be dead, no, could he stomp you, no so a fallow up shot would be needed, just as many animals that are taken with the high shoulder shot.
Would the '06 penetrate to the brain on a buff, with most angles yes and with the right bullet. Is the brain shot a viable dangerous game vital target, certainly, would it be at 500 yards, well, that up for debate and dependant on the rifle and the guy behind the rifle.
Is the '06 a stopping rifle, NO. Would you take a 30-06 to hunt buffs at close range, NO but its a likely fact that the 30-06 would perform better at longer range on these game animals then it would at close range.
Back to the original question, could the '06 kill a water buff, certainly and in the hands of a quality shooter, that could place his shot precisely, I would not be surpised to see the results that were shown on the TV show.
Apparently you can kill one at 60 yards with a .30-378 loaded with Berger's... The fella on Extreme Outer Limits just pumped one full of holes, the first of which was a head on chest shot, followed by a lung shot, followed by the ol' Texas heart shot. That was his gun/bullet of choice, lol. I'm sure that his sponsors had nothing to do with that decision.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
WOW!!!
Great choice of bullet/round combo for a head on frontal attack of a buff!!!! He is lucky the buff decided to turn and run after that first shot!!!
Great choice of bullet/round combo for a head on frontal attack of a buff!!!! He is lucky the buff decided to turn and run after that first shot!!!
Much has been said on this post but just add some comments having shot cape buffalo requiring multiple 375 rounds through both lungs and heart, 470 rounds not exiting, and seen big bulls shot with .22 rounds headshots. I know of a buffalo shot at close range with a 22. Capstick claimed to have shot an elephant as a wager with a 22lr through the heart but said it took a long walk to follow. I read once of an elephant shot at 600 yards. The point is it is possible with a 30-06 head shot but borderline with a side on chest shot and certainly not a typical single shot kill. This summer we tracked for 10 hours a sable shot in the chest with a 30-06. We need to remember , unless there are other mitigating factors, that in compassion for the animals we kill we should make it as clean and quick as possible - that usually means a high power rifle with a properly placed vital shot and for cape buffalo the minimum is a 375 or 9.2. As Kirby points out prcise bullet placement is still key.
A few posts already have covered a number of important points.
Yes you can kill them at 500 yards with a .30-06. A head shot with a solid would do it.
Why would you ? It would be like shooting a cow at 500 yards and a cow costs a lot less.
They are marketed as DG and I doubt you'd find an operator happy to let you take a long range shot.
A mature animal on average is larger than Cape Buff and have (I believe) overlaping ribs.
There is no legal minimum for hunting Water Buffalo in Australia. Most outfitters state the .375H&H as a minimum and recommend .458 or larger.
Indigenous meat hunters are often recorded as useing nothing more than a .22 magnum in the ear, to kill them.
Yes you can kill them at 500 yards with a .30-06. A head shot with a solid would do it.
Why would you ? It would be like shooting a cow at 500 yards and a cow costs a lot less.
They are marketed as DG and I doubt you'd find an operator happy to let you take a long range shot.
A mature animal on average is larger than Cape Buff and have (I believe) overlaping ribs.
There is no legal minimum for hunting Water Buffalo in Australia. Most outfitters state the .375H&H as a minimum and recommend .458 or larger.
Indigenous meat hunters are often recorded as useing nothing more than a .22 magnum in the ear, to kill them.
RMulhern
Well-Known Member
Yep! I guess you could shoot 'em with a .22 LR....if your brain was small enough!
