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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics
Lothar Walther vs Krieger barrels
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<blockquote data-quote="Extremist458" data-source="post: 1227998" data-attributes="member: 10561"><p>Well, I tend to be very long winded, so I'll try my best to be brief...right...</p><p></p><p>To start, let's address the topic of LW barrel steel.</p><p>LW50, the stainless, is their most common steel. They sell some 3 to 1 over CM (Chrome-Moly, i'll get that) in center-fire rifle barrels. Because of a few reasons.</p><p>LW-50 = 410 stainless.</p><p></p><p>Disclaimer: Alloy isn't everything. The quality and properties of each can very quite a bit. Grain refinement and how well the alloying elements are dispersed (precipitated within the iron matrix) or dissolved if you would. If a steel is cooled too slow they can form groups and carbides (like rocks in concrete) that can give an area of weakness. If cooled to fast, cracks can propagate and cause differential hardening, which stresses the steel, or simply too hard (too much detail to explain here).</p><p></p><p>What's that mean and why? The reason is complex, but not hard to understand. The most obvious is the .6% sulfur in 416. The sulfur is an issue; it can lump together in pockets or areas where it is richer then others. This makes it super easy to cut in one area, and a difficult in another. But more over, it burns...yes, imagine that. So as you shoot, very hot gas (up to 4500 degrees for a nanosecond) burn the sulfur out and create pockets or pitting in your barrel. It also aids in corrosion in that area. So, it is necessary to VAR (vacuum arc remelt) or remelt the steel to refine it. This helps, but there is still sulfur in your steel.</p><p></p><p>410 is sulfur free, for the most part. So it solves two of those issues right away, but also the supply LW gets is very high quality 410 with uniform grain and very good properties.</p><p></p><p>Sulfur is a lubricant. It is a great aid to machining. It is the base we commonly know a Moly or moly lube, which is Molybdenum Disulfide. This is why 416R cuts so well and uniformly...but would it give you better properties to your barrel life, no.</p><p></p><p>This is the reason 416R cuts so much better, and why LW pulls or pushes a button to make their barrels.</p><p></p><p>Another reason is LW barrels are all tight. Yes, they are usually about a full thousandth tight. This gives a better gas seal that reduces gas blow-by, which is the #1 cause of barrel erosion. </p><p></p><p>Studies show 70-85% of barrel wear is from gas erosion. Unless the barrel is super heated (above working temp of that steel), then the rifling is simply smashed down.</p><p></p><p>So hardness...harder tempers of the same steel are done at a lower temperature! Yes! So if the barrel is harder by heat treat, the operating temperature is less. That differs with different steels, so I'll get to that in chapter 2.</p><p></p><p>LW19 is apx 4340. Now, what's the difference. Both are low-alloy CM steels in the "through hardening" category. They are almost the same, except for the addition of some Nickle...hmmm Well this is an issue for most. Nickle is the bane of machining. Think Hastaloy or Inconel.</p><p></p><p>The additional Nickle makes this steel just as tough at a higher hardness, basically. This is why they make action of rifles from this steel. Nickle is tough, hence the chips that form like PH steels. I seen someone call LW19 17-4; it's not. It's not stainless, and PH steels are a mother to machine, unless you do everything right. Still, nickle is the reason.</p><p></p><p>Side note, chrome is somewhat good for machining. It can make a barrel slicker feeling and chip a tad better, but wear out tools a little faster as well. Harder isn't so bad, just smaller chips and different machining techniques is all. Ask anyone who has machined an action. Actually, I find steel too soft to be more difficult to machine (like why standard 4140 a touch soft can squeak and finish not smooth).</p><p></p><p>Now 4340 is better for barrel life and harder bullets. Say like using 855A1 and steel core bullets and ammo. Nickle also increases barrel operating temperature...so why doesn't the military use it? Blame that on the military industrial complex of lining pockets and replaceable vs better. Anyone really think Mil-Spec is better then the civilian stuff out there? Let's not. Sorry.</p><p></p><p>Now non-ferrous metals (nickle and chrome) are hardened by working them, hence why PH steels (precipitation hardened) work the way they do. So buttoning a barrel of 4340 and 410 can cause the surface to be a slightly harder then the body of the barrel, and this doesn't lend itself to chambering. But it is good for long life.</p><p></p><p>Short conclusion is that easier to machine steels are better for accuracy, but combat or long life barrels would gain from better steels. Now before chapter 2 I will say that those steels are steps to the available steel I have seen and played with...there are steels out there that make barrels last 50-100,000 rounds. Yes, I've seen it. Or steels so strong they can take 1500-1600 degrees without damage. But we will have to see if anyone will make them.</p><p></p><p>AJ</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Extremist458, post: 1227998, member: 10561"] Well, I tend to be very long winded, so I'll try my best to be brief...right... To start, let's address the topic of LW barrel steel. LW50, the stainless, is their most common steel. They sell some 3 to 1 over CM (Chrome-Moly, i'll get that) in center-fire rifle barrels. Because of a few reasons. LW-50 = 410 stainless. Disclaimer: Alloy isn't everything. The quality and properties of each can very quite a bit. Grain refinement and how well the alloying elements are dispersed (precipitated within the iron matrix) or dissolved if you would. If a steel is cooled too slow they can form groups and carbides (like rocks in concrete) that can give an area of weakness. If cooled to fast, cracks can propagate and cause differential hardening, which stresses the steel, or simply too hard (too much detail to explain here). What's that mean and why? The reason is complex, but not hard to understand. The most obvious is the .6% sulfur in 416. The sulfur is an issue; it can lump together in pockets or areas where it is richer then others. This makes it super easy to cut in one area, and a difficult in another. But more over, it burns...yes, imagine that. So as you shoot, very hot gas (up to 4500 degrees for a nanosecond) burn the sulfur out and create pockets or pitting in your barrel. It also aids in corrosion in that area. So, it is necessary to VAR (vacuum arc remelt) or remelt the steel to refine it. This helps, but there is still sulfur in your steel. 410 is sulfur free, for the most part. So it solves two of those issues right away, but also the supply LW gets is very high quality 410 with uniform grain and very good properties. Sulfur is a lubricant. It is a great aid to machining. It is the base we commonly know a Moly or moly lube, which is Molybdenum Disulfide. This is why 416R cuts so well and uniformly...but would it give you better properties to your barrel life, no. This is the reason 416R cuts so much better, and why LW pulls or pushes a button to make their barrels. Another reason is LW barrels are all tight. Yes, they are usually about a full thousandth tight. This gives a better gas seal that reduces gas blow-by, which is the #1 cause of barrel erosion. Studies show 70-85% of barrel wear is from gas erosion. Unless the barrel is super heated (above working temp of that steel), then the rifling is simply smashed down. So hardness...harder tempers of the same steel are done at a lower temperature! Yes! So if the barrel is harder by heat treat, the operating temperature is less. That differs with different steels, so I'll get to that in chapter 2. LW19 is apx 4340. Now, what's the difference. Both are low-alloy CM steels in the "through hardening" category. They are almost the same, except for the addition of some Nickle...hmmm Well this is an issue for most. Nickle is the bane of machining. Think Hastaloy or Inconel. The additional Nickle makes this steel just as tough at a higher hardness, basically. This is why they make action of rifles from this steel. Nickle is tough, hence the chips that form like PH steels. I seen someone call LW19 17-4; it's not. It's not stainless, and PH steels are a mother to machine, unless you do everything right. Still, nickle is the reason. Side note, chrome is somewhat good for machining. It can make a barrel slicker feeling and chip a tad better, but wear out tools a little faster as well. Harder isn't so bad, just smaller chips and different machining techniques is all. Ask anyone who has machined an action. Actually, I find steel too soft to be more difficult to machine (like why standard 4140 a touch soft can squeak and finish not smooth). Now 4340 is better for barrel life and harder bullets. Say like using 855A1 and steel core bullets and ammo. Nickle also increases barrel operating temperature...so why doesn't the military use it? Blame that on the military industrial complex of lining pockets and replaceable vs better. Anyone really think Mil-Spec is better then the civilian stuff out there? Let's not. Sorry. Now non-ferrous metals (nickle and chrome) are hardened by working them, hence why PH steels (precipitation hardened) work the way they do. So buttoning a barrel of 4340 and 410 can cause the surface to be a slightly harder then the body of the barrel, and this doesn't lend itself to chambering. But it is good for long life. Short conclusion is that easier to machine steels are better for accuracy, but combat or long life barrels would gain from better steels. Now before chapter 2 I will say that those steels are steps to the available steel I have seen and played with...there are steels out there that make barrels last 50-100,000 rounds. Yes, I've seen it. Or steels so strong they can take 1500-1600 degrees without damage. But we will have to see if anyone will make them. AJ [/QUOTE]
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