Lost please help

[FearNoWind]

Does "1903 a3 custom" mean it's a Sporterized Springfield 1903-A3? What was done to it in the process of sporterizing other than a different stock?

A couple of other points:

1. The Berger 210 grain VLD was designed for a 1:11 (or faster) twist barrel. Unless your barrel is different from the standard military twist rate you're probably using a 1:10 twist so I doubt that the faster twist is the source of your problem. What MV are you recording?
2. Why are you seating bullets into the lands? In my experience 30 cal bullets prefer a bit of a jump.
3. You say your bullets are seated a 3.363 OAL with Hornady OAL gauge. Is that actual cartridge case base to bullet tip?
SAMMI specs for the 30-06 are 2.940 - 3.340 ....
4. With the OAL you're using, half of the loads you listed are waaaaay over max. Check the Hodgdon manual.

The Caldwell style of chrono is sensitive to distance from muzzle, direction and intensity of sunlight, and other atmospheric issues. It's important to set it up exactly the same way from one test session to another to get the best MV results.
Seating die stem design (as previously mentioned) is critical to seating accuracy and it's important to check every round and adjust for = or - .001 for consistency.
I assume you are cleaning the brass well, including the inside of the necks, and that case OAL is the same for all prepared cases.
The Hornady Bullet Comparator Basic Set with 6 Inserts will provide the CBTO (cartridge base to ogive) measurement as long as you're sure you're using the proper insert. Always check each round as it comes out of the seating die for CBTO and be consistent in the alignment of the completed cartridge in the caliper as well as the pressure applied when measuring.
Another assumption I'm making is that you are carefully calibrating your Lyman Gen 5 powder dispenser and verifying zero at the beginning of every loading start up.

 

[SAM1980]

Springfield 1903 a3 bedded action. Bolt face trued up. Fluted 27" Krieger 5r 1 in 10 RH twist. New stock, and march 2.5-25x42. I know that the charges are way over max. I have run 4 different ladder test looking for pressure signs. Didn't see any until 55.4 gr of h4350, which is 2.6 gr over bergers max load. Velocity of 2751 at that charge, but I have no way of checking pressure. Brass and primers were all fine. Bolt was a little sticky. So I stopped there. I checked five of my FL sized brass tonight. All five measured .330 at neck. Seated 210 gr berger too 2.656 in FL sized brass. Measured neck again, and got .333. That is .003 neck tension. So I don't think it is a mech tension problem. One thing I did noticed was that these brass are on there 3rd firing, and I have not trimmed them yet. They are all varying about .003 or so in length. I know this would play some roll in my issues, but how big of a part, I don't know. I am planning on loading a seating depth test which berger has put out for "finding the sweet spot" on seating depth. Going to load it at the 51.8 gr of H4350. This is the max load berger is listing for the 210 gr berger vld in there load data. I know that I'm pushing it with powder charge, but I never saw any real pressure signs. I don't know just doing best I can with my ignorance! Thanks for all the help guys

 

[Unofficial Gun Addict (UGA)]

Sam... If you don't mind my asking,... What's your coal? I'm popping your numbers into quikload but I need your coal to run the final figures for your powder charge.

Boss

 

[FearNoWind]

Sam, for heavens sake pay attention to the warning comments that have been posted here. You seem to be familiar with Berger specs. so I assume you know how sensitive their VLDs can be to seating depth and that you've read the Berger tech. bulletins. Reloading can be fun; it can also be dangerous. When you see pressure signs in your fired cartridges you're already far beyond the safe pressure line. The plan you describe is VERY dangerous. Don't be one of those guys who leaves the range in an ambulance with the bolt of his rifle sticking out of his forehead.

 

[Barrelnut]

I know this would play some roll in my issues, but how big of a part, I don't know. I am planning on loading a seating depth test which berger has put out for "finding the sweet spot" on seating depth. Going to load it at the 51.8 gr of H4350. This is the max load berger is listing for the 210 gr berger vld in there load data. I know that I'm pushing it with powder charge, but I never saw any real pressure signs. I don't know just doing best I can with my ignorance! Thanks for all the help guys

STOP!!!!! You have a nice custom rifle. It is not a GOOD IDEA to do a seating depth test with a MAX LOAD. WHY? Believe it or not... pressure can increase not only by seating into the lands, but can also increase as you compact the powder/air in the case more by setting the bullet deeper into the case.

If I were you. I would try a different brand of bullet. One more forgiving. Then move back to the Berger VLDs once you have the rifle figured out. Who knows maybe the rifle just will not shoot the VLDs. That is not so uncommon.

I would try some 180 Nosler Ballistic tips. They shoot great in a variety of 30 cals.

Start 20 thou off the lands using the load data from the Nosler website.

You have to get some sort of baseline to gauge improvement..

 

[FearNoWind]

Thanks, Barrelnut .............
When I read "I'm new to reloading, I have been working up various ladder tests using berger vld bullets out of my 1903 a3 custom. I have noticed that during the ladder tests that I would get drops in velocities for three or four rounds, even with .4 grain increases in powder charge." at the start of the thread and then the comments that followed I became a little concerned too.
Then when what I interpreted as the "oh well" inferences developed I wondered if the OP realized how dangerous his plan for reloading for this rifle might be. I hoped we'd all make some impression that might inspire a higher degree of focus on safety.
Your "STOP!!!" comment may do the trick.
Thanks again .............

 

[SAM1980]

Coal is 3.338

 

[Unofficial Gun Addict (UGA)]

Coal is 3.338

Thanks Sam. My concern was about over-pressure also, which is why I wanted to pop your figures into quikload and see what it recommends. I'll get it done tomorrow and post the results back for you.

 

[SAM1980]

Thanks J this coal has a cbto of 2.656. Which has the bullet touching the lands. Until now I have jamming the lands .007

Barrelnut, you have good point. I will take your advice, and back off powder charge, when I change seating depths. I will work back up toward book max from there. Not read to give up yet on the vlds. But in the end you might be correct about my rifle not like these specific bullets.

 

[Unofficial Gun Addict (UGA)]

Sam... This should give you some guidelines which I would really consider following for your loadouts. Looks like 51.7 is pushing into some pretty high pressure, whether or not the ammo or rifle are overtly showing signs or not.

Just my 2 cents... But quikload has been pretty much spot on except for a little difference in velocity from my rifles to what the program tells me. I generally follow velocity as to where my pressure issues are going to begin. It's a bit of art and science... But I think it provides another good data point.

Good luck.

Cartridge : .30-06 Spring.
Bullet : .308, 210, Berger VLD
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.338 inch or 84.79 mm
Barrel Length : 27.0 inch or 685.8 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4350
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-20.0 84 41.36 2181 2219 32276 6426 94.9 1.743
-18.0 86 42.39 2233 2326 34486 6596 95.8 1.695
-16.0 88 43.43 2285 2436 36848 6757 96.7 1.649
-14.0 90 44.46 2337 2547 39379 6907 97.5 1.599
-12.0 92 45.49 2389 2661 42090 7046 98.1 1.552
-10.0 94 46.53 2440 2777 45000 7174 98.7 1.506
-08.0 96 47.56 2492 2895 48122 7289 99.2 1.462
-06.0 98 48.60 2543 3015 51478 7391 99.5 1.419 ! Near Maximum !
-04.0 100 49.63 2593 3136 55089 7480 99.8 1.379 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 102 50.66 2643 3259 58980 7554 99.9 1.339 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 104 51.70 2693 3383 63170 7614 100.0 1.301 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 106 52.73 2743 3508 67711 7663 100.0 1.265 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 109 53.77 2792 3635 72617 7710 100.0 1.229 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 111 54.80 2841 3763 77934 7754 100.0 1.195 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 113 55.83 2889 3893 83704 7794 100.0 1.162 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 115 56.87 2938 4024 89988 7831 100.0 1.130 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 104 51.70 2787 3622 76325 7270 100.0 1.216 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 104 51.70 2551 3035 51388 7778 97.3 1.415 ! Near Maximum !

 

[Unofficial Gun Addict (UGA)]

Personally... I would start at 45.5gr, work up some seating depth rounds at .020, .040, .080, and .120 from the lands. Recommendations are 6 rounds for each depth setting. Start with the rounds closest to the lands and then work your way away from the lands in stages. Keep an eye out for pressure signs and stop testing if you see any. I would check velocity for those rounds that were good, and especially for any round that showed any sign of pressure (make a note if you do as that's a hot load and that velocity is likely over max for your rifle). Check your velocities to see how they compare to what quikload recommended. It looks like anywhere between 2590-2642 fps is where pressure starts to become dangerous and obviously this varies from rifle to rifle.

Ok... one of the loads should give you better grouping than the others. Use that seating depth, work up some loads for powder charges.

Now here's the thing that's important about the data above.... I ran the numbers using to coal you gave me. When you are moving the bullet further away from the lands and into the case... Pressure increases so to data that I gave you above is no longer valid, which is why I backed off your load to 45.5gr for seating depth testing. Here's the max safe powder charge that is recommended by quikload for .120 off the lands which is the deepest depth that Berger initially recommends testing to: 48.6gr @ .120 off the lands. You can see that it is a whole grain lower than for max charge for the COAL of 3.338 which is what we ran data for. So this is why I would start at 45.5gr. You could even use 44.5 or 45 gr initially if you wanted.

To make it easier for you for determining the powder charges you'd like to test, if you find a seating depth that groups better than others... send me your COAL, I'll rerun the data in quikload which will give you the data you need for that particular seating depth.

Good luck and I hope that makes sense and that the data helps.

Boss

 

[SAM1980]

So basically what your saying J is when they say in the book "DO NOT EXCEED MAX LOAD," what they really intended to say, was do not exceed max load. I think I got it now. Thanks buddy

 

[Unofficial Gun Addict (UGA)]

Anytime Sam. Good luck man.

 

[SAM1980]

Hey J,
I ran that seating depth test yesterday. Got good result at the coal seating depth posted, which is seating the bullet right at the lands coal of 3.656. And got a pretty good group with the bullet seated .010 of the land, with coal of 3.646. If you have the time could you run 3.646 coal through quick load? I would like to see how much it changes concerning chamber pressure, and powder charge. Thanks again J