Looking for a new elk gun

[MontanaRifleman]

I respect your opinion and I like the 300 wsm a lot after having worked with it quite a bit now developing loads and shooting it long range. I disagree that it is a long range elk rifle. 3000 fps with a 180 grain bullet will kill an elk at 800 yards if the angle is right and the shot is perfect but that rarely happens in a hunting situation. A 300 wby will push that 180 to 3300 fps and gives it the punch to get out to 800. In my opinion the 300 wsm is a 600 yard rifle that does not have enough pop in the 180-200 grain bullets for long range elk and is best served with a 150 barnes out to about 600. Why limit yourselk. If you want an elk rifle then go get one and don't try to make a marginal one work.

I respect your opinion also and you have a lot more experience in LR than I do. But Buckbrush was specifically looking at the 300 WSM for elk cartridge out to 6-700 yds, and wanted something with reduced recoil. IMO the 300 WSM is capable with a well performing bullet. At 700 yds it's pushung a 180 grain bullet @ 2000 fps and 51 lb ft of momentum. It is on the low end of the spectrum but it should do the job. Case in point, a member here shot a bull elk @ 1350 yds out of a 7mm STW with a 162 gr A-Max. My estimate is that the bullet was moving about 1800 - 1900 fps with a momentum of 41-44 lb ft. It went through both shoulder bones.

I aggree, that bigger is better, and I am planning on switching my 300 WSM for a 300 RUM, possibly a 7mm RUM. But I think the 300 WSM is more than adequate for Buckbrush and his needs.

I also think the 180 gr bullets are best for LR shooting out of the WSM than the 150 or 165/8 gr bullets because they have a better BC. The 150's run out of steam real quick, especially the Barnes. The TTSX has a BC of .420 in the 150 gr vs the E-Tip's .498

 

[buckbrush]

After thinking about this for a while, and thanks to the great advice I've received, I am thinking about rebarreling an old Model 70 7 REM mag my dad gave me years ago. Something is wrong with the barrel. It would only shoot a 140 grain bullet 2600 fps, sprayed bullets everywhere and it was the hardest kicking gun I've ever shot so I stuck it in the closet. I think that would be the most cost effective thing to do.

I guess now the question is, what caliber? I thought if I ever rebarreled that gun I would do another 7 REM mag but I also considered a 7 RUM but I don't think the magazine would house that round without a lot of machine work. I am not stuck on any caliber, I was thinking 300 WSM because of bullet selection.

Thanks a bunch for all of the advice so far.

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

I agree with you and you are correct in my opinion that for his purposes the 300 wsm will do a good job. I am very impressed with the 300 wsm. What I was getting at is that I think it is a 600 yard gun and if you want more I think a bigger gun would be better. Because after shooting it a lot and thinking it is a 600 yard gun I am going with the 150 barnes TTSX in mine because I can run those to 3419 fps and I had a big drop off in my gun with the 180's and 200's. With a 600 yard gun the big bullets can't catch the little 150 and the barnes 150 retaining all of it's weight has really impressed me as hitting a lot harder than a regular 150 in my other guns. Could I kill an elk at 800 yards with your 180 grain load? You bet I could , if I had a choice though I had rather have one of my bigger guns at that range. You were showing the energy of the 7stw at whatever range that was. Back in the 70's I shot a nice 6 point bull off the flat tops in Colorado at over 1100 yards with a 270 wby and a 140 grain boattail. That energy wasn't much but the elk walked about 50 yards and layed down dead. He was never even spooked. After guiding a lot of elk hunters though I realized bigger was definitely better. You can take any center fire big game rifle loaded properly and kill stuff with it so all we do here is argue about trivial things anyway.

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

Oh no! Now another can of worms is opened! Get a 496 super whacker stacker for any elk over 100 yards! They are huge tough beasts and require the very latest, greatest ,fastest, biggest, cannonball out there. The best elk rifle you could do on that action without modifying it for feeding the ultramag case would be the 340 wby. Here is the loading data on mine with a 28" douglass premium barrel 1-10 twist I built right after the long 270 wby shot on that elk. The 340 is only about 100 fps off the 338-300 ultramag which is a great long range elk killing machine. 91 grains of I-7828 driving the 250 sierra gameking at 3052 fps. It will kill an elk as far as you can see it. This load was developed in the 1970's and the 250 gameking was the highest BC bullet made at the time for hunting. Here is an updated load with the 225 accubond at .550 BC. 95.5 grains of I7828 pushing it 3225 fps. If you modified the rails and went with the 338-300 ultra you could ad maybe a 100 fps to those numbers but the 340 is all you need and no elk will ever know the difference.

 

[buckbrush]

What about a plain 'ol 338 RUM?

Thanks.

I knew I would do this...decide on one thing then move on to another.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Buckbrush, the 300 WSM has less of a selection of practical bullets than other 30 cals because of the case design. 180 gr are abou ton the top end although some might use 200 gr. If you want a good 1000+ yd rifle, You mught want to step up to a 7mm RUM or 300 RUM or bigger. Of course, you should have longer barres for these rifles and the bigger you go the more recoil. You can get a brake, but I personally don't like them. A lot of guys use them.

LTLR, 3419 fps for a 150 gr bullet out of a 300 WSM is great velocity. I'm assuming it's a 26 inch barrel or longer? With that velocity the my 180 E-Tips catch your 150 TTSX's @ about 800 yds. I'm getting 3000 fps out of the 180's with a 24" barrel, I would think I could get a little more with a longer barrel. Anyway, as you say, we are beating our gums on trivia.

I am looking forward to decking out a 300 RUM for some long range shootin'.

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

Same thing, you would need to modify it a little to feed properly. Like I say there is about a hundred fps difference between the three. The plain ole 338 ultramag is as good as anything out there and you can buy bullets for it instead of having to make them. To tell you the truth it might be a better choice than the weatherby even after paying a little to get it to feed properly. I forgot wby brass just went through the roof. I ordered a few hundred rounds for some guys and was floored by the recent price increase. That stuff is now gold plated I guess. I think I payed $26 per 20 for them. I have always made my 340 wby's by just necking the 375 H&H to 338 anyway so didn't really affect me.

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

Montana, I read my earlier post and the punctuation was wrong and it looked funny. It should state, "I agree with you and you are correct". Then the next sentence starts, "In my opinion.... It looks kinda weird the way it came out up there. I don't proof read these things. I have never worked with the short mags until last year. For many years I carried a 10 1/2 pound 338-378 all over north america and if I could see it I could kill it. As age creeps up on me I had to find a better way so I tried the short action mags to shave some weight. I only have experience with one so I am no expert and don't know what others are getting out of there's. But I have been very impressed with the one I am working with. I went up to 74 grains of H-414 with no pressure and a 150 grain. At 72 grains it is a one hole group at 3419 fps. At 7 pounds scoped out I am very impressed with it. It is a 24" lightweight barrel. Mine really fell off with the 180's down to just around 3000 where you are. I was looking at it as a 600 yard rifle anyway and the 150 barnes I felt would kill anything within that range with a very flat trajectory. Your 180 E-tips would do the same. This year I will probably see that 35" mulie at a 1000 yards and wish I had my big gun but I just can't tote it any more backpacking. Good luck with yours. By the way what is the BC on those E-tips? Do you have any of that info yet?

 

[MontanaRifleman]

LTLR, I got my Sako 85 Finnlight 300 WSM this past spring to replace my aging 7mm RM that was loosing accuracy. I wanted something a little bigger like a 300 mag and after doing some shopping I went with the 300 WSM. This was before I had any interest in LR or else I would have picked a different plattform and probably a different cartridge. I think the 300 WSM is a good cart though, I like the case design and it allows for shorter more carryable barrels/rifles for shooting and seems be a very accurate cart as well. However, with my setup, accuracy is terrible and I sent the rifle back to the company, via the dealer to get it evaluated and possibly replaced. I'm not sure if it's the rifle or the Optilock rings? I put a 2 lb Nightforce on it, and with that cart it probably really stresses those rings. So I do plan on getting a Sendero 300 RUM wich is more inline with LR. Scoped out, it will come in at about 11 lbs, a little heavy for carrying but I should manage for a few more years.

3419 fps out of a 24" barrel is incredible. That's about 150 fps more than some charts show for a 150 gr bullet. You might look at the 150 E-Tips, as they are also a monometal bullet with a better BC than the TTSX (.498 vs .420) Other advantages are they are made from a tougher guilded metal and retain their petals at higher velocities better than the TSX and probably foul less too.

I haven't tried any 150 bullets out of my 300 WSM yet, because I didn't think I could achieve the the velocity you are getting and I didn't want to waste anymore time loading or shooting this rifle than I had too, to get me thrugh hunting season. I did try the 168 TTSX's and was only getting about 30 fps more with them over the 180's at max loads. Interestingly, the 180 E-Tips maxed at 66 gr of H4350 while the 168 TTSX's maxed at 65.5 gr of H4350 which I found a little surprisng because the E-Tips had more weight and bearing surface. If I could get 3420 fps out of the 150 E-Tips, I could get bout 150 yds more performance than I am with the 180's @ 3020 fps. BTW, 3000 fps is about what most charts show for a 180 bullet in 300 WSM. My personal approach to choosing hunting limits for a particular bullet/load is minimum opening velocity and about 40 lb ft of momentum for penetration for elk, and just opening performance for deer.

I would like to keep this rifle or it's replacement if I can get it to shoot, but with construction (my work) the way it is, I may have to choose between the WSM and the RUM.

You can get the E-Tip BC info off the Nosler site, under the store section.

Good shooting,

Mark

 

[davewilson]

buckbrush said, After thinking about this for a while, and thanks to the great advice I've received, I am thinking about rebarreling an old Model 70 7 REM mag my dad gave me years ago.

this would be perfect. a gun you don't use that needs rebarreled. if you want to take elk at 6-700, my vote goes to the 338 but the others will work also. any of the cartridges mentioned will work great. my advice would be to get a brake. if you don't like brakes, my suggestion would be a 338 Win Mag shooting a Barnes 210 TTXS. If you can't kill an elk with a 338 Win Mag, a bigger cartridge won't help.

let us know what/how you make out.

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

Dave, I may have given the wrong info up there. I must have read one more zero in there and thought he said a model 700 7mm rem mag which I said without modifying it a little for the ultamag case to feed the best would be the 340 info I gave. I think the last model 70 I did rebarreling a 375 H&H to a 338-300 ultramag required very little if any modification to feed the ultramag case. Can you help out here. He might could get into the ultramag easily and that would be the best long range elk rifle on his action. I agree the 338 win mag with a 200-225 is tops without a brake. The 200-210 are easy on the shoulder but hit hard on an elk.

 

[davewilson]

LTLR, Would never argue about the hitting power of a 338rum. i have a 338/300rum with a brake and once for kicks and gigles i shot it without. i can assure you it was way more kicks than it was gigles!

i'm building a carry gun in the 338/300 and i'm gonna try those TTSX's. they are a very impressive hunting bullet. i want to be effective out to 800 but shooting will probably be under 500. with a fair amount of grizzles in the area i'm going this fall( Wy elk), the Barnes are my first choice. was leaning towards a 225 but i wonder how fast a 210 will go?

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

Dave, I have data on both the 210 TTSX and the 225 AB in bunches of 338-300 ultras I have done. All the best accuracy loads in most of the rifles were very similar between 3300-3350 fps. Maybe the barnes built up pressure quicker than the 225 AB causing the velocities to be about equal. I know it doesn't sound right and maybe somebody else can come in here with different info but that is what I found. I have seen a lot of game hit with these and the 200 BT since a lot of guys I built guns for hunt caribou and such with me. All three of these bullets perform perfectly and will kill anything in north america flat out dead. The barnes has more pass throughs and both the noslers are usually perfect mushrooms on the far hide. I am switching all my 338's except the super long range ones to the 225 AB for the .555 BC which outperforms the other light bullets. I think you are doing the right thing with the lighter bullets. The 300's kick like a mule in ten pound hunting rifles and hurt accuracy. Out to 800 yards and most all shots are taken inside of there the 225 will outperform the bigger bullets with far less recoil in a light rifle and therefore more accuracy. You can use mil dots out to about 700 yards and get on the animals quickly without having to mess with the clicks which helps a lot. I can't do that with the 300's. The last two years I took big 6x6 bulls at roughly 700 and 800 yards with the 200 ballistic tip. Recoil is light with those and they just flattenned the elk with perfect mushrooms. Even up close they do a very good job and hold together. We get to test a lot of stuff on the caribou hunt with two tags each and a number of guys and also the antelope hunts with three tags. A guy was almost killed and would have been by a grizzly right near the house here this fall but his dad killed the bear while it mauled his son. Do you have the points to draw a tag this year? You must be headed up toward me if you are worried about grizzlies because my end of the state is where they are. I am south of Cody. Let me know if you draw a tag I might could help you. Are you applying for a draw unit or a general tag?

 

[buckbrush]

Aren't the Weatherby cartridges hard get accuracy from compared to other cartridges?

I'm thinking I may do a 338 RUM with a Gentry Quiet Brake if not a 340 Weatherby. Been playing around with the numbers a bit on a ballistics program and they are both impressive with 225 Accubonds.

Thanks.