long range rifle advice

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by derrickrussell89, Feb 20, 2012.

  1. derrickrussell89

    derrickrussell89 Member

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    hey i'm new to the long range shooting rifles farthest i have ever shot was 400 ( oddly enough with a marlin 22 with a bsa scope and i hit it more than i missed ha )but i have always wanted to shoot out to 800-1000 yards but just never tried it nor do i know anyone in my area who shoots long ranges to shoot with and learn from now dont get me wrong just because im new to long range im far from inexperienced with rifles and hand guns just not out too long ranges . i own some great rifles in great calibers i own 1 b.a.r browning from the 60s 1 browning safari 30-06 also own a browning a bolt in 300 win mag and a rem 700 cdl in 270 , but i want a custom rifle built the way i want it i have narrowed down what i want and would love opinions on what you would go with and why etc this rifle will mostly likely built around july so here is what ive come up with


    calibers - 308 win, 300 win mag, 7 mag
    actions - pre- 64 winchester, remington 700
    barrels - shien, krieger
    stock - mcmillian
    trigger- timney, jewell (2.0 lbs -2.5 lbs)
    scope rings- badger(30mm)
    scopes- u.s. optics ,zeiss nightforce and schmidt and bender


    this gun will be used for paper and will be used to hunt medium to large game also i do not reload so no wildcat catridges or odd balls that cant be bought one day when i have someone to teach me ill get into reloading but till then just wanna stick with the over the counter ammo so thanks yall and looking forward to the responses!!!
     
  2. D.ID

    D.ID Well-Known Member

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    No offense intended but a full custom sparing no expense being fed factory fodder is never going to reach it's full potential. I would build a 308 do to match ammo availability but bet your money would be better spent on a good heavy barreled factory rifle and a reloading set up. In my humble experience, bullet seating depth alone can make the difference between a 1.25" rifle and a 0.3" rifle. Good luck
     

  3. derrickrussell89

    derrickrussell89 Member

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    No offense but we will have to both beg to differ I've saw a rifle made by tactical rifle inc shoot 1/4 Moa through 1000 yards it shot 3.00in at 1000 using hornady match ammo over the counter and I could also get the barrel built for one certain round or get some one to work me up a load I just don't see the logic in not buying the rifle when I have the chance and finances to do so but to buy a factory rifle when I have several? I'd love to reload but I guarantee with out someone showing you something's I would most likely mess up along one step and boom brand new rifle or old rifle gone :(
     
  4. geargrinder

    geargrinder Well-Known Member

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    Do you have someone that's going to teach you to shoot long range?

    That's a much more difficult task to learn than handloading. Especially on your own.

    Since you have no budget limitation, skip the factory action and go for a custom. Stiller, Borden, Bighorn, or similar will be money better spent than fixing up a factory action.

    Krieger is a good choice, but IMHO Shilen is a step down. I'd also look at Rock, Lilja, and Brux. Cut rifled seems to be more popular lately, but good button rifling has proven solid performers.

    Don't forget all the accessories. Range finder, Ballistic Calculator, Anti-cant device, Weather meter, Angle Cosine indicator.
     
  5. D.ID

    D.ID Well-Known Member

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    None taken. I am not saying It can't be done with factory ammo or that you should not buy the best gear that you can. Just that these types of performance often hinge on a small detail and reloading can control allot of details. Reloading intimidates allot of people but really can be pretty straight forward. It is Your money and your machine= your call. Good luck in either case..............Duke
     
  6. derrickrussell89

    derrickrussell89 Member

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    Thanks and yea I know it does make a big difference alot of times and I would love to reload and prolly will get the equipment and start sooner rather than later I'm just gonna have to find someone to teach me things I can't read in books etc but that's why I'm here to hear more experienced opinions I just would like to get the best rifle I can then get into reloading bit by bit so I'll know my rifle etc
     
  7. derrickrussell89

    derrickrussell89 Member

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    No I someone told me of a long range shooting range not far from me so gonna check it out and see if they are helpful etc and also thanks for the barrel ideas I've heard of lilja also I have heard the chimera action is very good don't know who makes it I forgot any advice on caliber and also I have 58 acres with two pipelines so 1000 shots aren't hard to set up
     
  8. Bart B

    Bart B Well-Known Member

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    Is that the biggest groups shot at each range?

    And how many shots per group?

    If they're the smallest ones shot at each range, they say nothing about the real accuracy one can always count on with both the rifle and ammo. Small groups are only a statistical rarity.

    And I'm asking this 'cause most folks are so infatuated with "smallest groups" they forget that all the other groups are larger; usually much, much larger.
     
  9. derrickrussell89

    derrickrussell89 Member

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    5 shot groups if I'm not mistaken and were not cherry picked hell of shooter behind the gun also ex army sniper
     
  10. sodak

    sodak Member

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    derrickrussell89,

    You would be able to project your ideas better if you would make correct sentences in your posts. When you post run-on sentences, it makes following your ideas difficult. We do speak English, don't we?

    Just an observation, but I think jumping into long range shooting without some basic groundwork is setting yourself up for failure. If you want to shoot medium to large sized game at long range you will need to handload. I don't see too many examples of match factory ammunition that combines accuracy, proper bullets, and velocities needed to harvest game at longer ranges. Like I stated, just my observation.
     
  11. shortgrass

    shortgrass Well-Known Member

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    Any reloading manuel published by the many that are out there (Hornaday, Nosler, Sierra, ect) have the reloading process discribed, in detail. All ya' gotta' do is buy one or two and take the time to read and understand them.
     
  12. roninflag

    roninflag Well-Known Member

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    Kreiger barrel. Remington 700 , bat or neskika action.
     
  13. toddc

    toddc Well-Known Member

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    Reloading is approximately 43.5434 times easier to learn than LR shooting. LR reloading is still 14.32 times easier to learn than LR shooting. Being afraid of reloading (in my opinion) means you arent deep enough into shooting to be doing it anyway. Average factory ammo is good to 600 (maybe). Custom loaded (hsm etc) will get ya to 800 maybe. Beyond that its time to build yer own. Also how in the world can you afford enough HSM ammo to learn to shoot? You could buy 3 custom rigs for what the ammo costs. People always ask what I have in my edge dollar wise. Well its under $1k (savage of course) and then around $1k in load development. In LR shooting every shot adds to the cost. Doing it without reloads is silly and costly.
     
  14. Bart B

    Bart B Well-Known Member

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    Commercial Federal .308 Win. match ammo back in the '70's and '80's would shoot under 2/3 MOA at 600 yards in well built M1 and M14NM semiauto service rifles. At 1000, it usually held 1 MOA. That's recently been bested by Hornady's new ammo. Google a search for "hornady match ammo 1000 yards" and check the info in the sites listed.

    Here's the finer details of both the Remington 7xx and Winchester 70 (and its 670 & 770 versions) compared from what I've observed with both of mine as well as many others on the competition rifle ranges.....

    Stiffness, or how much they bend for a given applied force....As the Winchester is about a pound heavier and has more metal aligned with the vertical axis where the greatest force bending them is applied by vertically whipping barrels, it's near 3 times stiffer than Remingtons. One can see this if they do dynamic tests measuring how much it bends with the same force and length of the moment arm, or statically using the mechanical engineering moment of inertia 4th order equasions. Few folks understand this, but it was well documented in one of Harold Vaughn's books on bolt action rifles.

    Resistance to torque....There's enough torque from bullets heavier than 160 grains leaving at more than 2600 fps to twist a barreled round action used in shoulder fired rifles a tiny bit loose from perfect epoxy bedding. While pillar bedding a round action helps, it's not as good as a rectangluar one. Benchresters learned this years ago with 22 and 24 caliber rounds used in round actions shooting tiny short range groups. So they put a flat bottom and flat sided sleeve on them and that solved that problem. High power shooters tried a 2 inch long recoil lug on Remmies shooting magnum cartridges, but it didn't work. They went back to Winnies.

    Firing pins....The Winchester one can be replaced without tools. With a hammer, drift pin, a penny and pair of pliers all on a table or something, the one in a Remington can be replaced.

    Extractors....Remington ones broke a lot and needed a few tools to both remove and replace. The early Winchester ones could be replaced without tools but those made from 1964 with the push feed bolts need a paper clip or a pencil to replace it as well as its spring and plunger; very reliable in operation and rarely, if ever, broke.

    Ejectors......Winchester's claw extractor and external ejector in their classic actions allows fired cases to be pulled all the way out for easy removal when single loading while the Remington clip extractor and spring loaded plunger ejector flip the case out as soon as its mouth clears the receiver ring just like the post '64 push feed Winchesters. For single-shot long range rifles, some folks have removed the spring-loaded in line ejector from their bolts so fired cases could be removed easily and not dropped to the ground.

    Box magazines....Winchester ones fed the most reliable but needed their follower top ribs for .308 and .30-06 rounds filed to a 45 degree angle to prevent round stacking when charged with 5 rounds in a hurry. Remington ones oft times hung up rounds at the top front of the magazine box.

    Safeties....Remington's early safety design was poor and didn't lock the firing pin directly so it caused too many accidental firings. And with the safety on, the bolt couldn't operate to unload the magazine. Its designer came up with a fix that cost an extra 6 cents per trigger to make but Remington chose not to do it. Winchester's was the most reliable as it locked the firing pin back, plus, the safety can be engaged then the bolt operated to unload the magazine.

    Recoil lug....Winchester's would take the force of a .458 Win. Mag. in hot temperatures all year long wearing out half a dozen barrels and never fail 'cause it's intregal with the receiver. Remington's is a separate piece that has bent forward from 400 rounds or so of .300 magnum use.

    Rear tang....Remington tangs are not all that stiff; they've bent with too much torque on the rear stock screw. Winchester's are rather strong and hold up well with even tight torqued rear screws.

    Bolt operation....Winchester's bolt handle is longer and better designed for most humans to reliably operate it in rapid fire situations without miissing a stroke. Remington bolt handles are too short and sometimes their knob's missed in a quick grab for a quick second shot so they need to be lengthened half an inch. And the Winnie's are typically much smoother than the Remmie's.

    PS: Yes, I like Winnies. But a good friend who fired the last shot to win the 1972 Olympic Games' last 300 meter free rifle match in Munich, Germany (he shot a 10 after taking apart his Rem. 40X and fixing something then getting it back together just a few seconds before time ran out) loves his Remmy.