Loading Question.

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by ol mike, Nov 18, 2006.

  1. ol mike

    ol mike Well-Known Member

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    Does a small window of accuracy w/a powder/bullet combo concern you?
    I misplaced some load data then found it after retesting the load.
    In the spring i tested a 25-06 load in 3/10th gr increments and 53.9gr of imr 4350 w/a 100gr nos-bt shot [1/2"].Today it shot .606 and .568 in 2-3 mph wind.
    That's great to me but my concern is 53.3 ,53.6 -- and 54.2 shot about 1 1/2".I'm worried that in cold or hot temps that the load might not be a good load.
    So should a small window of accuracy like this concern me?Just don't want to load up 100 of them and end up w/a 1 1/2" groups in cold/hot weather.
    Thanks Mike
     
  2. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    1.5" is way out there, so I would continue testing.
    What's your velocity & ES doing?
    Have you tried seating depth and primer changes yet?
     

  3. rotorhead

    rotorhead Well-Known Member

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    This would concern me. I always try to find a load with a large window. There are alot of powders out there that produce good windows. That being said I would do what mikecr suggested there might be a seating depth that will make a differance. I would be interested in what your velocitys are and what rifle you are using an your bullet weight? I'm thinking if you have enough barrel and space that AA4350 might be a better choice it is a little slower than IMR4350 and although I have tried it in the 25-06 I would think it would be a good powder. A buddy of mine uses the AA4350 in a swift and a 69 grain bullet at 3550fps and it has a very large window. anyway there my 2 cents worth

    RH
     
  4. ol mike

    ol mike Well-Known Member

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    Mikecr ,
    I don't have a chrono yet i'm moving west in 4 months so no room for more stuff.I haven't tried seating depth or primers because i thought i might be chasing my tail w/the small window of accuracy.

    Rotorhead ,

    The gun is a rem 700 bdl has about 350 rounds down the 24" barrel ,100gr nos. bt ,cci 200 primer ,imr 4350 powder ,ww brass ,15k off the lands.

    I have 3 loads worked up that shoot 3/4" in this gun 75 v-max,85gr nos.bt ,110gr accubond.So i guess you could say i've got a 3/4" gun.
    I've tried the 100gr.nos bt w/h-4831 ,imr-4831 and imr-4350 -imr 4350 does the best.The other powders don't have the small window of accuracy so i wondered if i should try to work w/them?
     
  5. rotorhead

    rotorhead Well-Known Member

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    Mike , I would think the 4831-H would be a little slow but it might not be with the 100 grain bullet. I really like the 1/4 bores all of them I just think they are great. I haven't owned a 25-06 but I might one day. I noticed my typing was a little off this morning sorry. I am a big fan of AA4350 it has worked well for me in a multitude of cartridges it is a little slower than the IMR version but it may not make a lot of differance. Ya know the more I think about it the hodgen should work with the 24 barrel assuming you have enough room in the case to get all of its use. I will be real interested in what you come up with. My experiance is mainley with Hodgen 4831SC it should be the same but I wouldn't be completely sure saying that. I will assume your barrel is a 1:10 twist? you should continue working with it and get that larger window. If you are from a colder climate and you want to go south and hunt in short sleeves you just might find a pressure problem with that large window you can back off a little if needed in the warm weather. When I first started handloading I found a load that worked well and I though the fun was over , I could not have been more wrong I really like looking for that perfect load with a great big window haha. This is a subject that doesn't get touched on alot I glad you did. I guess we will keep loading and trying and learning new stuff Isn't this fun stuff You sound like a fella that has been at a little while so let me know what you come up with.
    Anyway nice talking to you good luck

    RH
     
  6. ol mike

    ol mike Well-Known Member

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    Rotorhead ,

    I checked my loading data book more closely and i haven't even tried H-4831 w/a 100gr nos-bt.It [H-4831] was w/an 85gr nos-bt ,and it shot around .75" average but the varget is more consistant w/the 75 vmax and 85 nos-bt.
    I loaded up 15 test rounds i'll shootem this weekend if the wind ain't howling.
    I had chased a load in a 22-250 for several weeks ,the barrel was screwed into the receiver crooked and the round count was getting up there so i had it rebarreled.Talk about a boring gun ! one trip to the range for barrel break in then a 1/2" consistant load straight from the lee book---BORING /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif!!
    Got a 7mm wsm on the way so after a little tuning i can start dreaming of that perfect load again--gotta love it!
    I'll dig this thread up and let you know the results of the h-4831 for some reason i think it's going to be 'the' powder.---Mike
     
  7. dryfarmer

    dryfarmer Member

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    Don't stop there , who's barrel did you use as a replacment, how much dollars, who did it, which 22-250 were you using, I am thinking barrel replacement may be my coarse of action,
     
  8. rotorhead

    rotorhead Well-Known Member

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    ol'mike
    How's the window on the 22-250? I have found that with a decent gun in small caliber like 224 it usually isn't to fun I have a 223 rem. in a Tikka cont varminter and I shoot two bullets one is a 50 gn sierra Blitz King and the other is a sierra 52 grain HPBT. Both were boring with nice big windows so I started on the only other thing I could do. It took me a while but I have the bullets hitting the same point of impact at all ranges well at least out to 400 that what I concider the limit for the gun. As far as the 1/4 bores go I have owned a 257 wby and a 257 roberts and liked them both. The weatherby was the first Wby cartridge I owned and there was a large learning curve there if you want to see how good you can get. get a Wby cartridge to load it pretty fun. The roberts came together real fast it was in a Ruger number one. I now have a 25scramjet I'm tinkering with, it is a little finikie I have found that this grossley large case behind that small bullet is tricky but fun never the less.

    I think your right, the H4831 sounds like the ticket. Play with the seating depth in my experiance the seating depth is a very definate fine tuning item. Once I get a load up to speed this is what I play with the most and amazingley enough, I have seen the most change in a gun attitude with changing the seating depth. I like to change up the primers as well but I only have a couple I like. I have found that remington primers seam very consistant and I like the CCI bench rest line of primers. The funnest thing is that on my 223rem. I use a bench rest primer with the 50 BK and a CCI small mag450 with the 52MK . I guess I do use federal as well so my prior statment would be invalid. Anyway I've rambled on enough let me know what happens with the 25-06

    RH
     
  9. ol mike

    ol mike Well-Known Member

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    RT ,

    The 22-250 shot 45gr win white box ammo around 1 1/4" groups during break in.Crazy thing was i didn't have the burris signature rings tightened down.
    I look forward to moving to colorado [april 1st] hopefully i'll have more oportunities for load developement.The closest gun range is 25 miles away ,or i'd be tuning loads until i needed a new barrel.
    I wanted to shoot the 55gr sierra blitzking as it has about the best bc of the bal-tip bullets.I started out about one full grain below max w/h-380 and went up in 3/10th gr increments looking for pressure signs.The group was about 1.3" w/6 shots w/ loads from .9 below max to .6/10th gr over max..The .3 gr under max ,max and .3 gr over max shots were 1/2".
    I've shot groups that were .300 but i don't claim those to be the norm ,i document -ALL- the shots and they round out to .750 give or take 2/10th's.
    Seating depth and primers isn't something i've played w/alot but when i no longer have to drive 50 miles round trip to shoot i'll start my super tuning phase!
    Well i'll be talking to ya happy thanksgiving to you .Mike
     
  10. dryfarmer

    dryfarmer Member

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    I understand primers effect on load preformace, used to hot of a primer on a 22-250 could barely keep them on the paper at 50 yards, it was my opion the primer was burning clear through the load and pushing the bullet out before doing a good job of igniting the powder which then would burn for varying lenghts of time, but am not sure I see the effect of a few 1000's differance in seating depth, can you please explain, though the best then to do was to get the bullet to the lands during loading
     
  11. rotorhead

    rotorhead Well-Known Member

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    dryfarmer, The seating depth will change how the bullet enters the rifling. Some bullet rifle combinations like a jump and others do not. A good example is the barnes triple shock bullets they like a jump for some reason if you set them real close they generally do not shoot well. It varies with every bullet/rifle combination. With out getting into too much garble about barrel frequency certian barrels like certian frequencies and you can adjust the bullet in the case to try and find that "sweet spot" I have a 223 that likes the bullets just barley touching the lands which isn't unusual on that caliber but I have seen a 22-250 that really liked .050 off the lands. If I set my 223 at 0.050 the group will open up to an inch but if I set it at the lands it will shoot 1/4 at 100yds. This is a factory rifle if you can believe that. In my experiance the seating depth is one of the larges variables to getting an accurate cartridge. That being said, being able to find a powder with a large window to work with is important as well. The interesting thing is the entire load. You just can't tell what it is that is going to get you there. I have had a primer issue before with a buddy's 22-250. I'm not sure if the primer was to hot or what but I went to the remington primer,"this was the only change" and the group tightend up nicely. This is the same gun that like to be set back off the lands. The bottom line is .. It sure is fun looking for that perfect combination isn't it?

    Happy Thanks giving
    RH
     
  12. 41mag

    41mag Well-Known Member

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    Hey Mike,

    I have loaded the 100gr bullets for the 25-06 from a number of manufacturers. I tried several powder combo's and got good results from Imr-4831, H-4831, H4350, RL-19, AA-3100 and AA4350. However in my particular rifle, the best overall performance was using the Nosler BT with Imr-4831 at 52.5grs. Cases were trimmed to 2.484, and primers were Win-WLR. This gave me a consistant velocity of 3350fps and grouped around 1/2" at 200yds. This load shot consistantly through the year and when the variance of cold hit about the only thing I noticed was the velocity dropped off about 100fps.

    I worked the load up in 100 degree temps. It was slow going but it definately let ya know when you had enough powder. The seating depth played a huge role with this particular load. I had it seated out on the lands, and got it to shoot around 1", but after backing it down to 3.250" I lost the pressure variance and got even better groups to boot.

    This is a fairly warm load in my rifle and I suggest you back down and work up.

    The above mentioned load, after hitting the seating depth, has been used with the Nosler PT, and the Barnes X as well. These three bullets are all seated using the same seater setting which puts them all about the same distance off the lands. They will all shoot about the same size group respectively, but to a slightly different POI. However the best thing about them is that all of them combined still group under 2" at 200yds making it easy to swap them out depending on what I was going after.

    My main stay load for this rifle has been the 115gr PT for close to 18 years. I use 56.5grs of RL-22 and a Win-WLR primer for 3150 fps. The seating depth for this rifle has been controlled by the seater which was set up to load the 100gr BT to 3.250". I didn't change it when I started loading these, as I was trying to work up a load quick for hunting season. I had seen the load mentioned in one of the manuals and just went with it, in hopes of hitting that velocity. Well it worked out and I not only hit the velicoty, but hit the accuracy I was looking for as well. I have not changed anything on it since, and have taken everything from skunks at 280 yds to yotes and whitetails out just over 400yds.

    As with the 100gr loads, I had to try the Barnes just to see if I could get the same results. Well I did only slightly better. With this rifle it will hold the PT, the Barnes X, and the newer 115gr BT all combined under the 1.5" at 200.

    These groups were steadfast up until about a month ago, when I got it out to check things for hunting season. I found that the stock had some issues and the result was a compete bedding job on it. Since I only had a week to get it sighted in before the season opened, and none of the standard loads available, I went with some 110gr AB's and the 56.5 grs of RL-22. I just loaded them as I would have any of the rest in hopes that they would repeat the performance. I shot them in close to 15mph winds and got just over 3200fps, and under a 1" group at 200 so I was totally happy. I had three bullets left from the initial 20 which I had loaded to give to my daughter for opening weekend, at which time I presented her with the rifle as well. I did the bedding and swapped out the Leupy 4x12 with a Weaver 4.5x14 Tactical that I got back the first part of this year. She has taken one of her best deer using it along with numerous others. So far this year she has only scoped out one decent buck through it, but already likes it better. Hopefully it will serve her as well as it has me for the past seasons and she will get a few more nice bucks with it.

    Good luck with yours, they are a great combo for medium sized game out to around 400yds using the mid sized bullets. I just found that I preferred them over the 100gr stuff due to the better SD and higher BC. I could get close to the same velocity but had more energy when they got there, which to me was better for our type of hunting. I will say this, I found the 100gr BT a little to much for deer under about 150 yds or so. Yes it dropped them like lightning hit them, but I didn't like the after effect of trimming off the bloodshot meat. With the PT's or the heavier weight bullets, I found it to a much lesser degree. I haven't taken anything using the AB's or the 115gr BT other than yotes and they were hit between the eyes. Needless to say the end result was pretty similar for both.
     
  13. dryfarmer

    dryfarmer Member

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    Re: Loading Question. reply rotorhead

    It is kinda fun, so many combinations, and all ways the chance the next combo will shoot better, of coarse there is always the varable of the nut pulling the trigger, hay what can I say I enjoy killing paper
    You have a good turkey day
     
  14. ol mike

    ol mike Well-Known Member

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    Re: Loading Question. reply rotorhead

    Thanks for the help Mike !

    I have h-4831 ,imr-4831&4350 ,and accurate 4350<--too many powders and not enough working w/bullet seating.The Lee manual says 'in their experience' seating depth has little to do w/accuracy.It appears i should have taken that w/a grain of salt.
    Here's my new plan varget works great w/75 & 85gr bullets and i've got 2-22-250's that love it.
    I'm going to load up all the 100gr nos bt's w/the powders i have left and use them to hunt/practice with ,then go to 115gr nos bt's and re-22.Lots of 25-06 shooters claim great velocity and accuracy w/it.Might give the wildcat 125gr bullets a whirl also for longrange game animals.
    Mike/tx-I cruised over and looked at your site again ,i like the picture w/3 piggies lashed to the 4-wheeler.
    Your daughter gets er done ,and that is a fine gun to be given for sure.
    I lived in ocean springs ,mississippi for 21 yrs and did alot of offshore/inshore fishing redfish-specks-tuna-dolphin-marlin-sharks-cobia -pretty much you name it i've caught it-love me some fishing that's for sure.

    Dryfarmer ,i'm moving up to colorado springs in april hope to get to meet some of you guys.Maybe we can punch some pd/yotes sometime.