Load development from ladder test, uhhhhhhh help!!!!

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by remingtonman_25_06, Apr 16, 2007.

  1. remingtonman_25_06

    remingtonman_25_06 Well-Known Member

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    Alright guys, I'm about to give up on this damn ladder testing BS. ITs really irritating me. Heres the deal. Wanted to find a load with 100g NBT and IMR-4831 with a winchester primer. I worked up a ladder from 51.5-55.5g at 200 yards. I loaded them to 3.250" which is right at the lands or somewheres close. Well from the ladder testing results, I thought I had something to be proud of. 52.5-53.5g put 3 shots, with 3 different weights into a .3xx" group. I thought that was crazy since being there each .5g difference. Ala the ladder test. Heres the ladder test and the 3 shot spread that was very good.

    [​IMG]

    Well I figured 53g was the middle or "magic" load. So I loaded 3 shells each at 52.8, 53, and 53.2g and kept everything the same. Win case, win primer, 3.250". It was a little bit windy when I shot these groups, bout 10mph, but I was hoping for something a lot freaking better then what I got. I dont get how 1 day you can get 3 shots with 3 different weights under .5", but yet I load up 3 loads each with the SAME amount of powder, and I"m back up to 2" groups. I'm not very happy, or lack there of words. Heres the results from the 3 laods tested a couple days ago.

    [​IMG]

    Ok I thought maybe the wind and I had a bad day at the range, $hit happens. I laoded the same exact loads up again, 52.8, 53, 53.2, keeping everythign the same once again. Went and shot at 200 yards on a nice day, maybe 5mph winds. What did I end up with, 1.5-2.5" groups again. Not very fricking happy to say the least. Heres the target of those loads.

    [​IMG]

    I dont get it one bit. How can one day, produce such a good group with 3 different weights, then I load up the 3 loads in that range with the same weight of powder, and my groups are 3-4 times larger /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif Anybody got some insight on this?? I'm looking for consistent 1" groups and under at 200 yards. Shouldn't really be all that hard to do off a bench and a good load. I know the rifle is more then capable as can be seen.
     
  2. CatShooter

    CatShooter Well-Known Member

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    Your results are the reason that I have no use (at all) for the ladder test.

    What seems good on the ladder, can be an awful load.

    Then you have to do it all over again (with multi-shot groups).

    When you shoot a ladder, you are taking a one shot "sample" of the 5 shot group - it can be any one of the five shoots - on your first test, if you did it over again on the same day, with the same loads, you would NOT have two ladders that showed the same thing.

    Next time at the range... take three sets of the same loads

    A - 51.5 through 55.5
    B - same
    C - same

    Then shoot three separate ladders and look at the results.

    If you think you are confused now, wait til you have three of these ladders, and each tells you a totally different thing.

    To see which of these loads is the best, shoot 5 shot groups and be done with it.

    .
     

  3. remingtonman_25_06

    remingtonman_25_06 Well-Known Member

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    So what your saying is do 5 shot groups with 52.8, 53, 53.2??? I could do that, probly wouldn't get very good results though...Or do 5 shot groups at 52.5, 53, and 53.5??

    I dont know, I"m just gonna keep loading how I always did it and I never had a problem keeping MOA at the distances I wish to shoot at. I was just hoping I could get 1/2 MOA with the ladder testing. Most the time I load up 3 loads at 1g intervals. Whichever shoots best, go up or down .5g and be done with it. Works for me and really dont take to much bullet/powder. I dont have inconsistency problems like this either...
     
  4. CatShooter

    CatShooter Well-Known Member

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    With cases of ~50 grains, I use 1/2 grain steps. Start at 100yds and then shoot your best at 300.

    I know it's basic and not trendy, but it works, without leaving you in total confusment. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

    .
     
  5. remingtonman_25_06

    remingtonman_25_06 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks! Back to the bench...
     
  6. .25AOD

    .25AOD Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget about seating depth adjustment too!! I start by finding what the max velocity I can get with a powder and keep acceptable pressures... then adjust the seating depth .003" -.005" and shoot 5 shot groups at 200yds untill the groups are acceptable.
    I guess I'd load up 15 of the 53 grain load, then shoot 5 @ right off the lands, 5 @ .003" off the lands and 5 @ .005-.0075 off the lands. See if that makes a difference. I've always had better luck "tuning" loads by adjusting seating depth than by tailoring powder charges... maybe it's psycho-symatic... but it works for me. ~JT
     
  7. Chawlston

    Chawlston Guest

    [ QUOTE ]
    Don't forget about seating depth adjustment too!! I start by finding what the max velocity I can get with a powder and keep acceptable pressures... then adjust the seating depth .003" -.005" and shoot 5 shot groups at 200yds untill the groups are acceptable.
    I guess I'd load up 15 of the 53 grain load, then shoot 5 @ right off the lands, 5 @ .003" off the lands and 5 @ .005-.0075 off the lands. See if that makes a difference. I've always had better luck "tuning" loads by adjusting seating depth than by tailoring powder charges... maybe it's psycho-symatic... but it works for me. ~JT

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Bingo! That is exactly how I do it as well. Works every time.

    James
     
  8. Chawlston

    Chawlston Guest

    Hello,

    There are a lot of different ways to skin a cat, but if you are attempting to fine tune ammo by using the powder scale, you may be wasting your time. If you have a scale that has a .1 grain resolution, then you won't get as good results as one that has the .02gr resolution. Once I got the better scale, all the problems with working up loads became childs' play.

    James
     
  9. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

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    Rem

    Lets see what is wrong here in shooting your ladder. I can ID three major issues right off the bat and two big questions with what you did.

    1. Shooting in a 5-10 mph wind and expecting .5 MOA groups with any group. I have always said a "no wind" condition. You left wind a major factor.

    2. Using a cold bore shot as part of the grouping. Everyone knows that will be thrown out of a group, so why do it and expect something reliable.

    3. Assuming you have a .5MOA gun. Just how do you know the gun "is more than capable" of producing .5 MOA groups? That is also assuming we are talking a factory barrel.

    Q1: What type chrono are you using and how reliable is it?

    Q2: What do you think your chrono data showed you to make you pick the three second groups shot as your followon testing?


    Now go ahead and shoot 5 shot groups at .5 increments from 50-55 and show us the groups. Keep chrono data.

    My bet is you will find the best groups not in the range of your second targets. OK you are at one end of a node I suspect, if your data is correct. I will tell you why later. Then fine tune between the best .5 gr increments. My guess is that you will end up splitting a specific .5 increment that was not used in the follow ups.


    a ladder is not a perfect technique for every gun. the gun and shooter must be capable of at least .5 MOA.

    You must shoot in a no wind condition with any testing mode IF you expect reliable information. Otherwise you are just shooting bullets for trigger time.

    Your chrono must be accurate and reliable and it helps to use the data it shows.

    You cannot use a cold bore shot and expect reliable information. Warm/foul the barrel up prior to commencing testing.

    All a correct that you cannot final tune a group using powder. A ladder only helps you define the node initially. You can tweak the range of the load but you must use seating depth and neck tension once you define the load range to final tune.

    BH
     
  10. POP

    POP Well-Known Member

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    REMMY:

    Personally I think you have a decent load there at 53 gr. 1.2" at 200 is .6 moa. Not too shabby.
    Especially with any wind present!


    Granted it is not the same as one hole but.......
     
  11. Cruizin

    Cruizin Well-Known Member

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    You said you are loading close to the lands. Are you measuring from the base of the bullet to the ogive and only using the consistent bullets?

    Do you guys feel this would be a worth while thing to do?
     
  12. remingtonman_25_06

    remingtonman_25_06 Well-Known Member

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    BH

    Thanks for getting in depth here. I'll try and answer your questions to the best of my knowledge, here goes.

    I guess I just figured 5-10MPH wind wasn't that much to worry about especially since it wasn't a direct crosswind. It was blowing 5-10mph, from about oh 4-5 o'clock, when I did the ladder test and I got the .349" group with 3 different weights, so I just thought I had the load dialed in really good. Or in other words, I dont see how on 1 windy day it shot under .5" with 3 different weights, yet on a different windy day I"m getting 2" groups with the same weight of charges, doesn't make sense to me...I know what my problem is, I"ll tell ya later...

    Usually I bring a differnt shell to shoot through the barrel to compensate for the CBS, I did that with the ladder test and 1 of the 200 yard tests. I just forgot to on the 1st 52.8g load as you can see by me indicating it on the target. Really, I think the CBS would only effect load#1, as by the time I shoot the first bullet on load #1, the barrels already warm, so how does that have anything to do with loads 2 and 3?? I usually wait 2-3 minutes between each shot, so the other groups should not be effected by it, in other words, I think anyways. Not sure If I explained that right, but I know what I"m talking about.

    I"ve shot plenty of groups with this factory barreled/rifle to know its capable of .5 MOA. ITs done it plenty of times at 100 yards. Heck its even shot me a .043" group at 100 yards for 3 shots. Best 3 shot group I've ever shot in my life. Double checked the laod again and it shot .250" the next time out, so I know the rifles more then accurate when I do my part or the load does it's.

    Cronograph is a cheap ass Crony. Yah it aint the best, but I think its better then nothing...As I put in .5g more powder, the velocity's went up how they should I think doing the ladder. Its not like they were sporatic or all over the place.

    The reason I went with 53g as the middle was because 52.5, 53, and 53.5g during the ladder, all went into a .349" group. According to the crony, the velocity for the 52.5g load should be 3332, the 53g load at 3347, and the 53.5g load at 3374. I thought that a 40fps spread over 1grain was pretty good. Especially considering it put them 3 shots into that .349" group.

    Actually now that I look at the crono data a little closer, putting groups aside, 53.5-54.5 showed only a spread of 25fps over 1 grain. 53.5g was 3374, 54g was 3387 and 54.5g was 3400.

    Anyways, I'll tell ya what I really think. I expect to much out of factory rifles. Its hard for me to grasp that concept when I see all these custom rifles shooting these small groups all the time. Thats my problem...I cant just be satisfied with MOA from a factory sporter rifle, ha ha. Even though I guess its good, just not what I"m really looking for.

    I"ll load up some more groups at 53.5-54.5 and see what happens.
     
  13. POP

    POP Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    BH


    I guess I just figured 5-10MPH wind wasn't that much to worry about especially since it wasn't a direct crosswind.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    A 5 mph wind with the 100 gr BT at 3350 fps is 1.05" off center difference at 200 yards Remmy. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

    If you factor that in with thw 1.2" at 200 yards group you do have a great load.
     
  14. barm

    barm Well-Known Member

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    Remington 25 06,

    I have read a fair amount of information concerning Audette's ladder. I think you are shooting too close. The minimum distance which I have seen listed to shoot a ladder was 300 yards. Your vertical stringing is what needs to be considered and 200 yards does not give the best picture for it. Just something to consider, I hope it helps.