Leveling my action opinions

[mtnwrunner]

I'd also be interested.
Kind of do the same thing now with something I came up with but it ain't precision.

Randy

 

[Mikecr]

How are you leveling the rifle stock?

 

[Iclimb]

Like I said I'll probably get 12 or so unless I get more for sures.
Could everyone who wants on either edit your previous post or post again with model and cal for your primary use.

 

[Iclimb]

How are you leveling the rifle stock?

It's leveling the action off the raceways for you bolt. Is that what your asking?

 

[Mikecr]

Ok, you're leveling the action raceway, with respect to what? The stock?
Shouldn't you level the ring base flats w/resp to the stock?
Just tryin to understand it

 

[Iclimb]

Ok, you're leveling the action raceway, with respect to what? The stock?
Shouldn't you level the ring base flats w/resp to the stock?
Just tryin to understand it

With respect to the earth. You can level off the base's but some, myself included, are not fully trusting of the base being true to the action. This just gives you another point to check off of and is the first point to worry about IMO. It would go like this.

Level action off a known level point, the raceways
Check level of the base's in relation to the action. May or may not be "equally" level
If it is proceed to level the scope in relation to the action. Install stope mounted level
If the base is not level to the action, you can level the action and set the scope to be level w/ action, install level

There many opinions and strategies as to how to level the scope. I always check with a plumbob in relation to crosshairs well. It's widely debated that the only thing that matters, as being level, is the Crossair and it does not matter if the action's level underneath a level crosshair. It really boils down to what camp you are in, so to speak. This is just giving an option to get an known point of square and leveling the action off that point.

 

[farout]

I always check with a plumbob in relation to crosshairs well.

I use a plumbob for the crosshairs too.

Current procedure is: Level action by removing bolt and placing small bubble level on the flat action area between the bolt opening and tang. I then mount scope and align the crosshairs to a plumbob. Last I mount a bubble level on the scope for reference while shooting. For my level of shooting skill, this seems to work well.

I stopped trying to level the ring bases or use them as reference, since they can be off and the only way I know to remedy that is to bed them to the action and that is a lot of work for me.

Main reason I like the bar stock idea, is it seems more repeatable. If I remove the scope for some reason and relevel, the piece of bar stock might make for a more consistent reference.

 

[Iclimb]

Used to level off of the tang too, I was never confident in that area. Plumbob and use a scope level set to level for reference is good but I like to know that my actions level too

I use a plumbob for the crosshairs too.

Current procedure is: Level action by removing bolt and placing small bubble level on the flat action area between the bolt opening and tang. I then mount scope and align the crosshairs to a plumbob. Last I mount a bubble level on the scope for reference while shooting. For my level of shooting skill, this seems to work well.

I stopped trying to level the ring bases or use them as reference, since they can be off and the only way I know to remedy that is to bed them to the action and that is a lot of work for me.

Main reason I like the bar stock idea, is it seems more repeatable. If I remove the scope for some reason and relevel, the piece of bar stock might make for a more consistent reference.

 

[bruce_ventura]

...There many opinions and strategies as to how to level the scope. I always check with a plumbob in relation to crosshairs well. It's widely debated that the only thing that matters, as being level, is the Crossair and it does not matter if the action's level underneath a level crosshair. It really boils down to what camp you are in, so to speak. This is just giving an option to get an known point of square and leveling the action off that point.

You're making this more difficult and expensive than it needs to be. Scope alignment is not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of physics.

Precisely leveling the receiver or base will not improve accuracy or eliminate canting errors. If you doubt that, then try shooting with a level receiver and a canted receiver. As long as the scope is level in both cases, there won't be a canting error either way.

To eliminate canting errors on long range shoots (in the field, not bench rest), the only thing that matters is that the scope is level when the shot is taken. If you're dialing elevation, then the elevation turret axis must be plumb. If you're holding off elevation using a BDC or milling reticle, then the vertical reticle line should be plumb.

For long range shots you also need a properly aligned anti-cant indicator to hold the scope level during the shot.

Another windage aiming error can occur in long range shots when 1) the vertical turret axis is not aligned with the center of the rifle bore, and 2) the rifle is zeroed at short range, like 100 yds, and then the elevation is adjusted for a long range shot. If the vertical turret axis is not aligned with the bore, then the windage error will increase as the elevation is increased. This error can also occur when holding off elevation. It can be eliminated by properly aligning the scope with the bore.

For short range shots (less than 300 yds), errors due to canting or scope mis-alignment are negligible. No special scope alignment tools are needed. Eyeballing the reticle alignment by looking into the eyepiece from about a foot away is adequate.

 

[Iclimb]

You're making this more difficult and expensive than it needs to be. Scope alignment is not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of physics.

Precisely leveling the receiver or base will not improve accuracy or eliminate canting errors. If you doubt that, then try shooting with a level receiver and a canted receiver. As long as the scope is level in both cases, there won't be a canting error either way.

To eliminate canting errors on long range shoots (in the field, not bench rest), the only thing that matters is that the scope is level when the shot is taken. If you're dialing elevation, then the elevation turret axis must be plumb. If you're holding off elevation using a BDC or milling reticle, then the vertical reticle line should be plumb.

For long range shots you also need a properly aligned anti-cant indicator to hold the scope level during the shot.

Another windage aiming error can occur in long range shots when 1) the vertical turret axis is not aligned with the center of the rifle bore, and 2) the rifle is zeroed at short range, like 100 yds, and then the elevation is adjusted for a long range shot. If the vertical turret axis is not aligned with the bore, then the windage error will increase as the elevation is increased. This error can also occur when holding off elevation. It can be eliminated by properly aligning the scope with the bore.

For short range shots (less than 300 yds), errors due to canting or scope mis-alignment are negligible. No special scope alignment tools are needed. Eyeballing the reticle alignment by looking into the eyepiece from about a foot away is adequate.

Like I said many opinions. I agree with every statement you said, I also like to level my action. I like to keep it that way while I level my scope and install the anti-cant level. If you turn your rifle 90* and install and level your reticle to it, you'll have to hold your rifle at 90* to shoot. I prefer my rifle and action to be level when I shoulder it. To each his own, if you want an action level this is one way to get it. Take it or leave it. Thanks for the info.

I'm curious on your thoughts of the wheeler leveling products you sell? Do you have a video of your reticle alignment tool?

 

[Mikecr]

You still didn't answer my question.
What are you aligning the raceway to?
What if the stock is rotated under your plumb raceway?
What if your plumb raceway puts cant in the action-base interface?

I agree with bruce, about what matters when rubber hits the road. And I realize action level in itself matters little, -unless the shooting system is dependent on this.
An example of such a system would be a BR stock riding bags on forearm and buttstock flats.
Here, you need the stock plumb because that's where it will head with recoil, and a bit before the bullet leaves the barrel. You want the action aligned well with this stock level in any way practical toward achieving plumb scope elevation(even more important) also.

So I would think you would first make efforts to level a BR stock, and while in this condition, level the action ring-base interface -while the bedding sets.

Who cares about the bolt raceway itself? It doesn't affect shooting.

 

[Iclimb]

You still didn't answer my question.
What are you aligning the raceway to? ---- I guess I don't know how to answer your question

What if the stock is rotated under your plumb raceway?--- what if it is?

What if your plumb raceway puts cant in the action-base interface?--- well then I would use the level raceway vs the base as it should relate closest to the bore center line. The base action interface may be off due to misalignment, that is why IMO you shouldn't use it to level your rifle while installing a scope.



Who cares about the bolt raceway itself? It doesn't affect shooting. ------- I trust it to be a square surface on the action

IMO the raceway is the only flat surface that I trust in the action so that is what I'm using to level my action. In your scenario you could level your stock if you wish then see how the action relates to your level stock if they coincide to each other you now have a reference point that you could trust (in your head). You could then move on to your ring/base, then to the scope.

If this isn't your method or you don't agree, that's fine. I'm not asking you to buy anything! Do it however you wish, for those that use an action level setup this is an option!

 

[Mikecr]

When you say you trust the raceway to be a square surface on the action, you're not saying what it's square to. 'Plumb' is not square to anything until made so.
The barrel is centered in the action ring on fitting, which does not relate to raceways, and turning them makes no difference to bore centerline.

I'm unconvinced that your raceway leveling(to nothing) holds any ballistic value.

 

[Iclimb]

When you say you trust the raceway to be a square surface on the action, you're not saying what it's square to. 'Plumb' is not square to anything until made so.----- I'm not a mechanical engineer, I mean it to be made flat I guess to the centerline of the action
The barrel is centered in the action ring on fitting, which does not relate to raceways, and turning them makes no difference to bore centerline.

I'm unconvinced that your raceway leveling(to nothing) holds any ballistic value.----wheeler and others have sold a lot of equipment that hold no ballistic value then! I'm not knocking other products and I'm not trying to start a business here, I just haven't had great experience with some of them and here is a cheap easy way to level my action when installing my scopes. You then must go through more steps to verify but...

Quote from previous thread:
Kevin Cram---- "The raceways are either broached or wire edm'd parrallel to each other during machining. The guard screws are then drilled and tapped perpendicular to the raceways. The scope base holes are then drilled and tapped in reference to the guard screws. The raceways give you a parrallel surface from which to reference the reticle of the scope in the same plane."

What are you leveling to when you use the scope base?


That's fine, you mention the bases in relation to the action. Do/would you level off the base? Maybe you can turn me on to better mounting methods, would you share your strategy?

If you search YouTube for "wheeler precision scope level" and watch how they suggest to level your rifle. Using then scope base, I just have seen misaligned holes before and holes drilled off center. This is why I cannot use the scope base to level my action. If you've ever used the level-level-level system you might feel its a little hokey.