Lerch and Bill's new Toy!!

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by lerch, May 9, 2006.

  1. lerch

    lerch <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

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    Lerch and Bill\'s new Toy!!

    Okay well she is not ready just yet but I figured I would go ahead and break the news. We have been talking with Kirby and Richard Graves about this bad boy for a while now. When we approached Kirby we said we wanted a gun to definantly make the 2k club with and to hopefully go after Kregg Slacks world record!!!

    Our original idea was the 338AM or even the 510AM. While all of these would have awesome potential, as Kirby is showing with the 338 AM, we settled on a smaller round.

    The gun will go as follows:

    7mm Allen Mag throated for 250gr ULD RBBT WildCat
    40" long 1.75 diameter straight tube Lilja 3 groove
    APS brake
    BAT 10"x2" action
    McMillan 50HBR stock (30% white--30%grey--40%black)
    Jewell 2oz trigger
    BAT 40moa base
    Ivey 150moa adjustable rings
    APS bedding block
    Premier boosted Leup 20-50x50mm

    Overall finished weight should be somewhere around 65lbs!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    We choose the 7mmAM over the 338 and others simply because of the ballistics. With a BC around .9 for the 200gr ULD it would have few rivals, with a 250gr bullet it should be amazing. I wont get into predicted BC's cause we all know where that goes, but it should be high!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

    I know we will have problems spotting dirt impacts at 2000yds to 2miles with the 7mm bullet but we just couldnt pass up the wind bucking ability and retained energy.

    The project was started a while ago so hopefully we are not a real long ways from straining our backs with this sucker, but then again you all know how smith's are, or even more how action maker's are!!!!

    Just wanted to put this all out there and see what you guys thought. In our opinion ballistically this should be close to the top for extreme range shooting rigs and we wanted to open the floor up to opinions


    take it easy
    steve
     
  2. ss7mm

    ss7mm Writers Guild

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    Re: Lerch and Bill\'s new Toy!!

    Lerch:

    If you've got the glass to spot critters at that range, you won't have any trouble seeing the results of the impact. I've only shot mine to 1500 yards so far but with the big Wildcats there is always quite a bit of landscape moved around at impact. About the only time I haven't seen an impact is if it is wet and or muddy, or if the impact is in an animal. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Although I kind of forget that you guys are shooting on table top flat land down there. I'm used to some incline in the terrain and that helps a lot.

    That sucker will be up to the task if you guys crawl in behind it and do your part. That's a pretty good list of components.

    I know what you mean about the waiting thing. I know we all give Kirby a rough time about being "slow" but in reality it's the wait for parts and components that holds everything up. Once he has all of the parts you won't have to wait very long at all. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
     

  3. lerch

    lerch <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

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    Re: Lerch and Bill\'s new Toy!!

    tabletop land yup, the rumor is you can stand on a beer can and see all the way across our state!!!

    Actually where we hunt pdogs at is one of the few hilly spots in Oklahoma so it will work in our favor, as well as the fact that our state is turning into a desert so dust clouds shoudl be visable


    take it easy
    steve
     
  4. wildcat

    wildcat Well-Known Member

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    Re: Lerch and Bill\'s new Toy!!

    Lerch, sounds like its going to be awesome. I can't wait to hear how she shoots. What will your volecity be with 250grn bullet. When will you guys get her. Make sure to post some pics.
     
  5. lerch

    lerch <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

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    Re: Lerch and Bill\'s new Toy!!

    We are wanting to get over 3000fps with the 250gr ULD, 3100-3200 would be absolutly amazing!!

    Our spotter is a Swaro 20-60x80mm Hi-Definition scope!! We are trying to capture video through this rig so hopefully when we get her all of you guys can see the results. The rig should be similiar to the MOAG but with a longer BBL and a smaller hole in the end

    steve
     
  6. davewilson

    davewilson Well-Known Member

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    Re: Lerch and Bill\'s new Toy!!

    Lerch, i'm basically jealous of this gun.don't know how else to say it. i don't want to come across as negative but i see 2 things that i don't care for. one is throating it for the 250 bullets.personally i don't think a 250 gr bullet will work in this caliber.it's been done before,it's why bullet makers only make em so long for a given caliber.why not throat it for the 200's.a few fps loss won't make any difference at 3k. after all it's the BC you're after and you can fall back on the 200's if the "i'm assuming untested" 250's don't work out.the second is a 3 groove barrel.i know the starting into the lands/long bearing surface/heavy bullet/huge overbore situation will be about as bad as it gets, but i'd go with a 5 canted land design.i dought a 5 canted land configuration will be any harder to start a bullet into than a conventional 3 groove.as a benifit you can probably shoot at least 100 or more fps faster with the canted lands.if the 250's don't work out and you use the 200's,then there won't be some of the problems that the 3 groove has had with the speeds the lapua improved pushes them.

    i'll never again build a gun that is in "unproven waters" and that's kinda what you boys are doing, but, it's the only way to find out if it will work.as i said before,i'm not flaming or tring to sound negative but just responding to your post.

    i wish you nothing but good luck with this and like many others will be anxiously waiting for test results and of couse that picture of a dead dog at 3300! Dave
     
  7. reed mosser

    reed mosser Well-Known Member

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    Re: Lerch and Bill\'s new Toy!!

    I have to agree with dave with on this one. I would throat it for to 200's. Lets face it a 200 grain 7mm with a b.c of at least .8 is pretty extreme. and I think what you run into with super long bullets is just too much bearing surface causing pressure. I don't think the 250's B.C will make up for the lost speed. I built my 22 dasher to shoot the 100 grain wildcats, while it does shoot great /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif and is excellent in the wind, I don't think i gained anything over the 90 grain bullets. Yes the B.C is great can,t complain . But I lost alot of speed due to the long bearing surface. For example my dasher could shoot a 90 grain bullet with a B.C of .6 at 3200 FPS, and the 100 at 2865 FPS. In my eyes i'm not gaining that much. The 7mm 338 laupa imp is a ballistic giant. I don't think you have any problems with 180 grain to 200 grain 7mm bullets. I like Richard and his bullets but give your self some options. Throat it for the 200's and if the 250 work great then throat it for them. I'm in the same boat throated my gun for the wildcats and wish I throated it shorter to use covential bullets to. Just give your self some options you can always make your throat longer, but can't make it shorter without rechambering. Your going to have a excellent gun ,just give youself some options.
     
  8. lerch

    lerch <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

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    Re: Lerch and Bill\'s new Toy!!

    Dave and Reed

    I am gonna try to respond to both you guys post at the same time since I am on the wife's lap top and I hate typing on this thing.

    As for the throat, this is the reason why we opened up this post, we wanted opinions. I will have to talk to kirby about the throating issue and it does seem like throating for the 200 would leave open a few more options. Hopefully the 250's will be as good as we hope and work out, if so I would like to seat them out so the case would look like how I dream, yes I know that is stupid but I like the looks of a case with the bullet seated out to show the proportions.

    I do understand the harshness the 3 groove bbl can put on a bullet and this is something we will have to deal with. It does add some bbl life and God knows with how we are gonna shoot this thing we will need it!! While I would like to get as much velocity as possible from all of the projections we have seen this matters very little at these ranges, it seems that the bc takes over and speed doesnt matter much. I am definantly okay with toning down the fps on this round to minimize SD and ES.

    I do think that the BC of the 250 would be amazing. JLK list their 180gr .284 bullet as having a BC of .735, now imagine adding 70gr of length to that!! I know that a bullet this long and with this much bearing surface will present definate issues but could rival .50 cal bullets and the retained energy, prolonged supersonic capability, and sheer wind bucking ability are too hard pass up.

    What we will have to see is how these bullets handle the supersonic--subsonic transition. Should be interesting to see.

    yes, these are very uncharted waters and to be honest it is exciting to be a part of it. Unfortunatly we both are not recent lottery winners so money is always a issue so it would be great if things would work out great on the first try!! Of course it doesnt work out that way to often!!

    I will definantly have to consider the throating issue, we will see what Ol' Montana man has to say.

    I am glad you guys posted on this, i was afraid it was gonna be a dead post at first!!

    By the way, the range we are actually going after is 3700yds!!!!!!!! Lets just see if it ever happens though!!!

    Thanks
    steve
     
  9. Jon A

    Jon A Well-Known Member

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    Re: Lerch and Bill\'s new Toy!!

    I know the thought of the BC a 250 grain 7mm could have makes my mouth water! You need to go up to a 300 grain 30 cal to beat that. Good luck with it, I hope it works just the way you want. If it does, my next tube just might have to be a 7mm. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif The length issues mentioned above concern me as well though. Hopefully it won't be a problem. You know, with the cost of a project like this, maybe some of that money would fund a little developement work by Richard with tungsten powder? Just a thought.
     
  10. ss7mm

    ss7mm Writers Guild

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    Re: Lerch and Bill\'s new Toy!!

    Lerch:

    I guess that if nobody tried the new stuff then the new stuff would never get proven would it. Richard and Kirby don't go into this haphazardly and without planing and design work. I have a new barrel on order as we are going to be doing some more testing and experimenting with the 7mm AM in something a little more portable than what you guys are building. When installed, this new barrel will be throated for the 250 Wildcats and I have no doubts that if I want to, I can also use the 200s.

    I've been playing recently with some 160 Accubonds and they work just fine. I seat them .020" off the lands and the big Wildcats get seated at the lands. The picture below shows a seated 200 and a seated 160. People wouldn't have any problems giving the nod to a 160 Accubond as being o.k. when it comes to bullet length, bearing surface etc. but if you notice in the second picture, the bearing surface of the 160 Accubond and the 200 grain Wildcat are virtually the same.
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I, for one, can't wait to get some of the 250's to try out. I think they'll be fantastic at long range. Hell, life is too short to sit around and think about what you'd like to do, or what "might" work. Just do it and if it doesn't give you the results you want, then make it right and continue to have fun.

    Coulda, shoulda, woulda just don't cut it. You're building one hell of a long range gun and I like your approach and the components you're using. If it was me, I'd do the same thing and throat it for the 250s. Hells bells, if it gives you any problems send it back up north and get it set back a little. UPS and FedEX get there overnight. Go for it, or like "crow mag" has in his signature, If you think something is not possible move out of the way so the ones that are doing it can.

    You're building a one of a kind rig so go for it, and have fun doing it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
     
  11. Jon A

    Jon A Well-Known Member

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    Re: Lerch and Bill\'s new Toy!!

    That's an interesting comparison, Dick. You're right, they're very close. Thanks for posting the pics.

    I think that 200 is the sexiest hunting bullet there is (so far, anyway).
     
  12. jb1000br

    jb1000br Well-Known Member

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    Re: Lerch and Bill\'s new Toy!!

    Agree with dave and reed:

    200gn, canted 5 land barrel (5r, 5c, polygonal pac nor, 5p)

    you can always remove more throat if the 200's don't work, cant put it back...it will be a cheaper operation to lengthen the throat than set the barrel back...

    And as Dick said...spotting impacts won't be an issue...i could see 308 hits at 1 mile in shin high alfalfa with my NXS on 8x!

    Good luck /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    YMMV,
    JB
     
  13. lerch

    lerch <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

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    Re: Lerch and Bill\'s new Toy!!

    The BBL is set on a Lilja 3 groove, if we have problems then next time we may go with something else, bbl is already ordered, and hopefully being made (I HOPE!!)

    My next gun is should fit in well with your website Jason!! Cooper Montana Varminter 6br 1-8 twist with high grade wood, should be here in the fall

    steve
     
  14. bailey1474

    bailey1474 <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

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    Re: Lerch and Bill\'s new Toy!!

    Dave, Reed and JB,

    I started worrying about that 3 groove recently as well. Oh well, the bbl is a consumable anyway. Problem is, we had to get the tooling for Dan Lilja to make this thing. Not many people are wanting a 40" long 7 twist .284" bbl!!

    If it doesn't work, we'll just order a cut rifled 6 or 7 twist. I assume this is possible. Mike Rock, if your out there, can you cut a 40" 5R 7 twist 7mm. If so, we may be calling if this Lilja doesn't work out.