Lazzeronis

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by Old teacher, Nov 2, 2012.

  1. Old teacher

    Old teacher Well-Known Member

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    Several months ago I bought on line a Sako model 995 chambered for the Lazzeroni Warbird. The barrel is marked Lazzeroni and Beretta, so I do not know who actually made the barrel out of those three choices. But all three have good reputations, so I wasn't too worried about it. (As a side note here, I bought this from someone registered on a number of sites as Kiowa Driver. The rifle was as advertised, pristine, but his advertisement included a box and a half of ammo and a set of Talley rings. Those never arrived, even after I contacted him. So take that for what it is worth.) Anyway, the rifle is impressive, front to back. It shoots .5 MOA at 200 yds, and with a Vias brake on it, the recoil is so low that on a lead sled, you do not have to put both hands on the rifle.

    I was so impressed by the cartridge that I decided that I wanted the real thing, a Lazzeroni in the same caliber. I sold off a few unused guns from my collection to come up with the money, then spent two months discussing every topic imaginable with John Lazzeroni just to get to know the guy who I was going to send
    $7000 to. John Lazzeroni is an interesting individual. He has very definite opinions on almost everything and is willing to debate any topic you care to bring up. We went from being friends to doing everything except exchanging gunfire about ten times. I have a few opinions of my own, so the e-mails heated up a few times. My conclusion was that John is a very intelligent individual, well read, willing to admit he is wrong if you can prove it beyond any doubt, willing to help you with any shooting questions you might have, and really an all around good and very honest guy.

    I promised him I would post my opinion of the rifle and how it shoots, which is the reason for this post. I received the rifle about two months ago, and it is a work of art. All parts are top of the line, everything fits perfectly, and the action is smooth as silk. The first thing I checked was the barrel to stock fit with the old dollar bill test, and the bill slid all the way to the action without touching a thing. The rifle comes with a pickatinny rail installed and a set of rings, the brand of which I do not remember and had not heard of. I suspect that is due to my ignorance. The trigger is a Jewel set at about a pound and a half with no creep. I set all my triggers at two pounds, so I will probably not change that. I put a Vortex Viper PST on it, and when I throw the rifle up to my shoulder, I am looking right down the middle of the scope. This rifle fits me like it is a part of my body. Plus, with the finish he puts on his rifles, it is just beautiful.

    I have not shot the rifle yet. Unfortunately, I had to have knee replacement surgery with a second one coming up, so it will be awhile befor I will be able to get out on the range again, which is frustrating me to death. I have the Lazzeroni, a CZ in .338 Lapua, and a Remington .338 RUM I had built on a Sendero frame. I had to have that custom built since Remington makes a .300 RUM in a Sendero, but not the .338. And I love Senderos, which is why I have four of them

    Anyway, I posted this much because I promised John that I would post my opiniion of the rifle on the forum, and he is probably wondering why I haven't done that yet. I will report on how the Lazzeroni shoots as soon as I am able to shoot it. Thanks for putting up with this long post. PS: there is an ad on various pages of this site for Benchmark Barrels. They live and operate a short drive from my home, and I take all my guns there for whatever they need. Benchmark is affordable, does outstanding work, and they are a nice bunch of guys. I highly recommend them for any rebarreliing, rechambering, etc. I have one rifle there now, and another that will go there as soon as the budget allows. They make an excellent muzzle brake that I would recommend over the Vais, and I never thought I would say that.
     

  2. mtnwrunner

    mtnwrunner Well-Known Member

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    Oldteacher, sorry to hear about the knees.
    If you can't wait to shoot her, I'll volunteer!
    Get better.


    Randy

    P.S.---what makes the benchmark brake better than the vais?
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2012

  3. Old teacher

    Old teacher Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the sympathy. I logged in, spent a half hour typing a reply to your question, and then when I went to post it, I was told that I was not logged in and the message was gone. I will not try to duplicate the reply. But, here is a short version. The Benchmark brake is slightly larger and heavier that the Vais, but not enough to matter. Instead of many little holes like the Vais and the brake that comes on the Weatherby Mark 5, The Benchmark has six, three per side, large slots that direct gases back and out at a slight angle, plus two holes directly in the front of the brake. I think it works better simply because it vents so much more gas backward than a Vais does. But it comes with a price. It is very LOUD. You need to have good ear protection and if you are at a range, you need to warn other shooters and you need to visually check to make sure that other shooters have their headgear on. But the reduction in recoil is well worth the increase in noise. The vais is a great brake; I have seven of them, but I will use the Benchmark's from now on. I hate recoil, and after shooting for 55 years, I will do whatever I have to do to make my guns shoot softer. My favorite rifle, a Sendero 300 Win mag, has a Vais on it, and you can literally see the bullet hit the target it shoots so softly.
     
  4. LazzInc

    LazzInc Well-Known Member

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    Old teacher ,,,,,

    Thank you very much for the compliments, and I too hope your knees get better sooner than later, so that you can try out the BIG LAZZ ! ,,,,,

    It was a pleasure working with you to build your rifle as I know you appreciate the quality and performance offered by the Lazzeroni ,,,,,,

    as for muzzle brakes, no question they work, some better than others, but as you know, we build hunting rifles, so I have to balance our selection between recoil reduction and noise level in the field
    ,,,, as even the Vais is way too loud for my comfort zone ,,,,

    Let's all make sure that we VOTE on Tuesday, the future of our great country really does hang in the balance ,,,,,
     
  5. Swamplord

    Swamplord Well-Known Member

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    My Sako TRG-S M995 in 7.82 Lazzeroni Warbird was a real pleasure to shoot and hunt with here in Alaska, It was the most accurate factory out of the box rifle I ever had and I dumped numerous moose, black bear and a 9 1/2 ft brown bear with it, the rifle/cartridge absolutely loved the Nosler Accubonds and Swift A-Frames,

    unfortunately the brass wasn't as good as it should be for such a well designed and accurate cartridge, ......I had to deal with 2 firings per case at $50.00 per box of 20 pcs. but then the price went up but not the quality... I have since rebarreled my M995 to .338 Norma Magnum... simply because of brass quality and price.... the Norma brass lasts 10-12 firings and is $42.49 per box of 20 pcs at Midway compared to the Lazzeroni Warbird brass at $64.99 per box of 20 pcs (also at Midway) ($74.99 at Lazzeroni website) that only last 2 shots and primer pockets are busted loose.

    Bottom line........If the brass quality issue were to be resolved, I would not hesitate to get my hands on a 7.82 Warbird or 8.59 Titan, which I feel are both very well designed cartridges and perform superbly in the accuracy and velocity departments,

    maybe Mr. Lazzeroni could have Norma or Lapua manufacture his brass ? I'd pay $65- $75 a box for that stuff anyday !
     
  6. Old teacher

    Old teacher Well-Known Member

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    Lazz: I am about as frustrated as a shooter can get right now. The knee is coming along nicely, but is taking longer than I expected, but it was a total reconstruction, so I should be happy that I can already walk without even a cane, but I am having trouble getting it flexible, which is typical I am told. What I am really frustrated about is that we lost our only shooting range. We had a decent range where we have shot for 20 years for $10 day. Two guys came in with AK's and shot up the whole range...the benches, the targets berms, the roof over the benches, everything, including a couple of houses several hundred yards down the terrain from the range.T he range owners shut everything down, got the NRA to come up and help them design a safer and more user friendly range. Even though my partner and I were well known at the range and were on their mailing list, we were not informed that the owners went to a membership system, 100 memberships at $200 a year. We arrived one day to shoot and discovered we were numbers 101 and 102 on the waiting list. The memberships fees are way out of line. It is a short (200 yd) range with mediocre facilities. There is only one other range within driving distance and it is a hot line. What is the point of shooting if you cannot get your targets to measure your groups? So we have been relegated to a local gravel pit. We have tried for years to get a first class facility on a piece of land within driving distance of all the local communities and far enough up in the boonies to not bother anyone or be dangerous to anyone. The committee working on this has gotten the go-ahead from the county, has the money and donations of heavy equipment, etc., but we have been stopped in the courts by an anti group of extremist tree huggers. Here is the argument that has us at a stand still. There is a stream in the "area" and the anti's claim that lead from the range will leach into the stream and pollute it. The stream is TEN MILES from the range site!!!!! So, I do not know what we and a lot of other people are going to do. Including the beauty that you built for me, I have another $10,000 in rifles that I have purchased in the last six months that I have yet to fire even once. The range we were trying to get built was going to be first class...trap and skeet, indoor and outdoor pistol and rifle, a thousand yard outdoor long distance rifle range, a beautiful clubhouse, etc. It was going to be built to provide a quality place for all of us to use and to draw local, state, and hopefully national competitions. I have not heard anything lately, so I do not know if the whole project is dead or if the people who were the driving force are still trying to find an answer to the court's decision. I do know one thing, we have a judge to replace.
     
  7. LazzInc

    LazzInc Well-Known Member

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    Old Teach ,,,,,,,

    grab a BIG CARDBOARD BOX ,,,,,, maybe 4' X 4' ,,,,,, draw a circle in the middle or staple some targets on it ,,,,,,

    go out to any old's friends farm that has a big cornfield that is all cut down this time of year ,,,,,,,

    lay your lazz on the ground prone at 100 yards from the box with a good bipod like from Harris ,,,,,,,

    once you get it where you want it ,,,,, throw the box out at 300 yards in the field ,,,, staple some new targets to it ,,,, and shoot some more groups ,,,,,,

    then throw it out in the field at 500 yards and have some more fun ,,,,,

    when finished you should be ready for a good long range hunt ,,,,,,,

    please let me know how you do ,,,,,,,,
     
  8. Outlaw6.0

    Outlaw6.0 Well-Known Member

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    Swamplord. Your discussion point about brass life has always intrigued me, as I've read a handful of excerpts such as yours. I have to say that i'm baffled, my personal experience has been much better (i'm happy to report). I have been shooting my 7.82 Patriot for years & I have yet to discard a single piece of brass. When working loads for a bullet change (I do that alot :rolleyes:), I utilized the same 5 pieces just to see how long they would last. I settled on a fairly warm load of RL-17 & stopped counting reloads after 6 per piece of brass.

    I wouldn't think the long mags were made by a different manufacturer than the short mags? Obviously they were different lot #'s, I wonder if the M995 setup ran higher pressure than others? That would make sense to me...

    John, any thoughts/experiences here? One of my out of state hunters is toying with the idea of picking up an M995 & i'd like some more info.


    t
     
  9. Old teacher

    Old teacher Well-Known Member

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    That is great advice, Lazz, for any season except the rainy season up here in the Pacific Northwest. The rainy season here lasts from mid September to mid-July. That sounds like out-of-control hyperbole, but it isn't. The sun actually came out a month or so ago, and we all went out to see what that thing was. We have plenty of fields around here since it is all farming country,, and since I have lived here my whole life, I have plenty of contacts with the fields to do as you say. The problem is that they are all under about a foot of water. Even if we could find a field where the water does not go up and down with the tides (they literally do), we would have a major problem with the Dept of Wildlife since our whole area is a swan wintering ground, and they are everywhere. You might get off a half a dozen shots before you would be signing a ticket for harassing the swans. I think our best option right now is to drive some of the hundreds of miles of logging roads until we find one with a relatively straight and level stretch, make a couple of warning signs to put up on each end before we shoot, and then go at it. It would at least be dryer, safe, and would not bother anyone unless the county has a problem. I am sure they will tell us if they do. But I appreciate your suggestion and attempt to solve our problem. I am going to go over to our old range and talk to them and see if we can't work something out. Over 20 years of doing business at their range and gunshop should account for something.
     
  10. Boman

    Boman Well-Known Member

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    I recently purchased a Sako m995 chambered for the lazz warbird and am just getting going with it. Im a bit concerned about the brass as well. It came with about 8 once fired and 5 loaded rounds and 20 brand new. All 8 of the once fired had splits in the neck of the case. I fired 3 of the loaded and they all split as well. The cases showed no signs of higher pressure, no extractor or cratered primer. So I emailed jon asking for help and guidance and he told me to buy his $120 per box ammo. To say Im not thrilled is an understatement. Ive since asked for some load data using his lazerhead bullets and all ive gotten is to use his site data which is for nosler ballistic tips, which I know load differently...

    So far im not thrilled with the results thus far. Ive wanted this rifle since they came out. I hope I get better results soon.
     
  11. Outlaw6.0

    Outlaw6.0 Well-Known Member

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    I have experienced this problem with Norma brass in a 6-284 years ago. It stemmed from what I believe was old & brittle brass. I switched brass & never experienced that issue again. I would suggest this, pull the bullets on your loaded ammo, decap them carefully or fire the primer w/o powder in your rifle for safety. Anneal the brass you have left & load away. I'd be willing to wager (if I was that sort of person) that your problems will be solved.

    In any case, no matter what you do. DO NOT fire split neck cases in your chamber! They can & do act like a blow torch to the wall of your neck, effectively FUBAR-ing your chamber.


    t
     
  12. Boman

    Boman Well-Known Member

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    Outlaw,

    Thanks for the help, I had decided to pull the bullets and start over but I will follow your advice and anneal the cases as well. I havent done it before so this should be interesting.

    I wonder if we came together and did a group buy of brass from lapua or norma if theyd do it? It sounds like wr may have some interested buyers..
     
  13. Outlaw6.0

    Outlaw6.0 Well-Known Member

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    Lazz brass is now made by Hornady. Quality is above that of the previous manufacturer (can't remember the name). You would have to purchase a substantial amount of brass to get a major manufacturer to re-tool to fit you needs. I wouldn't be surprised if you would have to order a couple hundred thousand pieces to pull it off.


    t
     
  14. LazzInc

    LazzInc Well-Known Member

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    Guys ,,,,,,

    yes ,, the Warbird brass made by Hornady is an improvement over the previous batch ,,,

    Having said that "I" am still using Warbird brass from the original 1998 batch in my personal rifle ,,,,, started with 500 cases, have shot them all at least three times ,,,,,

    still have over 450 left after culling for necks way out of round and other anomalies ,,,,, I will get around to annealing the next time I load them, so the necks will be less likely to crack ,,,

    "IF" you shoot the Warbird caliber, remember some important things ,,,,,

    1 ,,,,, if your primer pockets are growing enough that the Fed 215 primer (only) is very loose when repriming, you load is too hot ,,,,

    2 ,,,,, use RCBS spec resize dies only, so as to not overwork the case necks when resizing, the extracting the expanderball ,,,,

    3 ,,,,, set the resize die down ONLY far enough to get the cases to fit back into the chamber, as any further will cause case stretching at the base on subsequent firings ,,,,,

    4 ,,,,, do not turn the necks down on the cases, just cull out the ones that are more than .002-.003" out of round, using a run-out gauge ,,,,,

    5 ,,,, learn how to properly anneal necks, and do this after every 3-4 firings to keep them soft and reduce splitting ,,,,,,