Kirby, 22 AM ?

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by dr14, Sep 16, 2005.

  1. dr14

    dr14 Active Member

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    Anything happening with the smaller calibers in AM's ?
     
  2. LB

    LB Well-Known Member

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    This is strictly my opinion, but that catagory has been done to a fair thee well. Performance wise, it's all variations on the same theme, from the Weatherby Rocket to necking the 243 Winchester. Some of the extreme examples seem to be good for 400 rounds of accurate fire?

    I have a 22-250 Ackley and believe there is a reason for the popularity of that cartridge. It's practical, and easy to make, and the performance is great. So, why reinvent the wheel?

    Good hunting. LB
     

  3. lerch

    lerch <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

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    Kirby is doing something in a 22AM,

    Richard Graves has made a huge 22 cal bullet, something over 100grs if I remember correctly.

    Check back posts for more details.

    Good Luck
    Steve
     
  4. ddubas

    ddubas Well-Known Member

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    Kirby can answer this better than I, but I e-mailed him on this round and his intent is for a long range yote round using 100 and 107gr. .22 cal bullets. I think he said the bc's were in the .600-.620 range. He can fill in the rest as I don't want to put down the wrong info.
     
  5. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Dr14,

    I have the 224 Allen Mag reamer in shop ready to roll. Just need to find time to build a test rifle!!!

    Compared to the conventional big 22 cals, well there will not even be a comparision to be honest. Not even worth comparing to the much smaller cals.

    This one is really an experiment in what we can do with the 22 cal.

    Richard has made a beautiful 100 gr ULD RBBT in .224" that is built off a much heavier jacket then what is found in the current 80 gr match 224 bullets. As such it will handle higher velocities and should also survive the 3 groove barrels better then the light jacketed match bullets.

    Will also make it a much better medium game bullet for game up to deer size critters.

    One of the main reasons for developing this round was to offer the coyote hunters extreme range but also with a bullet that would not blow up on impact and cause severe pelt damage. We will see how it performs.

    [​IMG]

    This pic shows the big 100 gr ULD RBBT in between two 7mm Accubonds, the 140 gr on the left and 160 on the right. Yes that 224 bullet is a bit longer then that 140 gr 7mm Accubond!!! I will not post any BC predictions but I will say it will SMOKE both of these bullets in BC value by a fair margin!!!

    The problem with the most of the big 22 cal wildcats are that there was nothing different in their design. Either the designer wanted 4500 fps with a 55 gr bullet or they were limited to 3500-3600 fps with an 80 gr bullet at very most because the bullet simply could not handle anything faster.

    Most in fact will top out in the 3400-3500 fps range because of bullet integrity issues.

    Everyone pretty much has settled down and said, well, we know the limits of the 224 caliber family of wildcats, NOT US!!!

    This may well be a flop, who know until bullets are in the air. But the idea of a 22 caliber round offering ballistics far superior to a 30-378 with a 180 gr Ballistic tip is interesting to me and I am confident we will reach these levels of performance with this bullet.

    This is not a high volume round so if you want to shoot P. Dogs get a 223 AI or standard 22-250.

    If you want a light pronghorn rifle or the ultimate long range predator rifle which is relatively pelt friendly, this may be the beast for you.

    After this there will also be a 6mm AM version as well based on the same case design.

    Another round Richard and myself are designing goes away from the current Allen Magnum family of rounds. This one will be a 25 cal wildcat designed specifically with barrel life and long range performance in mind for higher volume shooting and competition use.

    I am not offering the parent case as of yet but I will say it will use the 142 and 156 gr ULD RBBT WIldcat Bullets with Dan Liljas new 1-7 twist barrel.

    Performance predictions are that this new wildcat will far outperform the standard 6.5-284 loaded with 140-142 gr VLD bullets while offering nearly identical throat life. This one will also be a great deer and yote hammer but it will be designed for single shot rifles mainly.

    This all will happen this winter after big game season when I get a chance to take a breath or two.

    Have a good day,

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  6. Ernie

    Ernie SPONSOR

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    Kirby,
    I wonder why I am not surprised? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
    I hope it meets your expectations, and then some.
     
  7. LB

    LB Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]

    One of the main reasons for developing this round was to offer the coyote hunters extreme range but also with a bullet that would not blow up on impact and cause severe pelt damage. We will see how it performs.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Okay, I understand the application. If my post above seems hostile, I apologize.

    Now, what sort of twist have you decided on, and do you have any idea of the range of bullets suitable, or is the one pictured pretty much it? It appears that you would need considerable freebore. Can you make an educated guess on barrel life?

    I'd also like to know what you consider extreme range? I realize that everybody has a different idea, but what do you consider to be the outer limit, and is it based on remaining foot pounds, or when velocity degrades to the point of instability?

    Have you decided on a parent case, or optimum case capacity? What would be the minimum barrel length, for optimum performance?

    As a specialize item, it has merit, as long a person understands how far a coyote can move between ignition and impact.

    And, yes. I personally have a bit of a problem with some folks banging away at extreme distances, which I define as around 600 yards for coyotes. In many cases, (.224") rather than blow ups, runners are a bigger problem, and I don't like to shoot at anything that I don't expect to recover. But, that's just me.

    Good hunting. LB
     
  8. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Another round Richard and myself are designing goes away from the current Allen Magnum family of rounds. This one will be a 25 cal wildcat designed specifically with barrel life and long range performance in mind for higher volume shooting and competition use.

    I am not offering the parent case as of yet but I will say it will use the 142 and 156 gr ULD RBBT WIldcat Bullets with Dan Liljas new 1-7 twist barrel.

    Performance predictions are that this new wildcat will far outperform the standard 6.5-284 loaded with 140-142 gr VLD bullets while offering nearly identical throat life.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    Kirby, not to be a pessimist but I really don't see how this round could give the same throat life as the beloved six-five two eighty four. Even the mighty Kirby cannot break the universal rules of trade-offs pertaining to guns. To go down in caliber but go up in bullet weight over the next highest caliber can obviously be done, but at the cost of burning more fuel to push the smaller diameter "piston" faster down the bore. Throw in pressure curves of trying to accelerate a heavier bullet and even more time is spent frying the throat. The 6.5-284 is one of the best rounds out there for achieving reasonable velocities with high bc/bullet weights and still having better than average throat life. To go down to a quarter bore means more powder to push a longer bullet back to reasonable velos and thus reducing barrel life. To go up in caliber to a 7mm means pushing at least a 30 grain heavier bullet than the 6.5 to get equivalent bc's. THis in return means more horsepower (more powder capacity) to accelerate the heavier bullet and before you know it, you're right back were you started.

    If you look at all the calibers out there from 22-338 and take bullet weights in them that give extraordinary bc's for the caliber, and then give them case capacities that are not going to roast barrels before the load development can be completed, you end up with cartridges that shoot somewhere between 2950 and 3350 fps <font color="blue"> regardless of the caliber being studied. </font>Arguably, the window could even be smaller. To go above this speed in any caliber can obviously be done but at the cost of barrel life, and to go below these speeds reduces the velocity to the point where it is no longer feasible (or better) to shoot the extra heavy high bc bullets.

    The whole thing is one giant give and take physics problem my friend. I believe that fire breathing dragons like the big Allen mags have their place of course. But they must have a price because the good Lord designed a happy medium and moderation in all things and if something goes above or beyond that, it will have to give up something.

    That being said, the Allen mags go in the absolute right direction for the average guy that shoots a box of ammo per year at big game. You are pushing super high bc bullets at super high velocities and that is the ticket for an extra long point blank range which is what most of those guys are after. I cringe at the thought of using super huge cases like Lazzeroni's line to push light bullets at blinding speeds because in the long shot, the Allen mags will smoke them every time because your bc's are nearly double the bc's used by the Lazzeroni hype-fed croud.

    I guess what I'm trying to say whilst standing on this soap box is number one, I need to step down off the soap box. Number two, that I did not try to be a kill-joy. And number three, I am continually impressed with the reports of the Allen mags, but the average shooter who's thinking of building a super hot rod rifle needs to be warned that hot-rods have a whole seperate set of problems and they have a price that must be paid.

    Hope this makes sense and please don't think I was trying to get a dig in at ya buddy. Just felt a little preachy tonight I guess! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Best of luck with your 224 allen mag.
     
  9. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    LB,

    This Allen Mag, like the others before it, and perhaps even more so, is a very specialized round using specialized bullets for a specialized purpose. It is by no means a general use rifle.

    It is first and formost designed with the intent to be used as a limited fire weapon which would include long range varminting(chucks and such), yote hunting and medium big game hunting such as pronghorns and smaller deer.

    I did not take your post as hostile in any way, this is an extreme idea, I fully admit that but so is a 257 wildcat with a 100 gr capacity and it has proven to perform very well for its INTENDED purpose.

    I hope this will be the same.

    As for bullets, we need the heavies to perform well at all. Yes that means the 100 gr ULD RBBT and 107 gr ULD RBBT. Richard is also talking about a 100 gr FBHP Bonded Core which I think would be amazing for yotes and pronghorns and deer. That is still on the slate to be made though.

    I am looking at a 1-8 twist barrel right now and feel this will be plenty for this bullet at the velocities I will be getting out of this round in a 28" or longer barrel.

    May need a 1-7 but I doubt it.

    SO yes it is very limited in bullet selection but you do not run pump gas in a 1000 hp dragster either /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif!!

    Will this be a big seller for the general public, NOPE!! It is mainly an experiment to see where that line of performance is that tells us when we have stepped over the edge into total impracticality. I personally do not thing this round will cross that line, in fact I am very optimistic that it will impress me as all the other AMs have to date.

    As far as my definition of long range. Ballistically speaking this will offer true 1000 yard potential. Should it be used at that range on larger game such as yotes, goats and deer, I would say no but I will also say that I feel it will offer 1/2 mile performance and accuracy to make one shot kills at that range.

    Like you I feel a 600 yard yote rifle is more then needed so that will be our goal.

    Have a good day,

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  10. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    GG,

    You make some solid points as always and I would agree with you on most.

    My idea with our 25 cal is to offer another option to the target shooters other then the 6.5 which I agree is a great caliber and there are several great rounds in this caliber.

    I am looking to match the velocity of the 6.5-284 loaded with a 142 gr VLD but instead use a 156 gr ULD RBBT. The case capacity of our round will me slightly more then the 284 but not by alot. Basically by design, just enough to offer same velocity performance.

    And possibly do so with a lower chamber pressure.

    Bullet for bullet, the 142 gr ULD RBBT in 257 will have a higher BC then the 142 gr VLD in 6.5mm. Not by much but a bit. With this bullet we will be offering more velocity then the 6.5-284 with slightly higher BC values.

    The 156 gr ULD RBBT has a significantly higher BC then the 142 gr VLD 6.5mms which we are looking to match velocity levels with.

    Yes throat life will be slightly less but only dropping 0.007" in bullet diameter will not decrease throat life much at all, especially if we can drop the chamber pressures compared to the 6.5-284.

    Remember we are not trying to push velocities vastly superior to the 6.5-284. To be honest I am looking to match them or even be slightly less with the big 156 gr ULD RBBT. The bullet will do the work in this round not the velocity as you well know is the key to any long range performance.

    As of yet you have only seen the full tilt performance rounds come out of APS and this round is a project to show not only can we built them FAST, Flat and accurate but also tone things back to offer comp quality results and barrel life as well.

    I will get alot of flack for this I am sure, I got more then my share when I came out with the Allen Magnums and with everyone I still get it. We will see what happens.

    To calm your concerns about the average shooter and hunter getting burned by these hot rounds. I assure you ever one of my customers knows full well what to expect with one of my Allen Mags LONG before they every put that pin to paper to write the deposit check. Often there are weeks of correspondence to allow me to fully understand the level of experience that my customers have and what round will serve them the best with the least amount of trouble.

    If a 6.5-284 will serve them best, that is the round I recommend. My Allen Magnums represent a very small percentage of my rifle orders and I only recommend them to those with the experience and more importantly common sense to load them appropriately.

    My step into the comp round world is simply to broaden my versitility horizons as this would will be VERY easy to load as far as case forming and loading.

    So while I agree with many of your points, I also feel there is more out there to be had in long range ballistic potential in a package that will compete directly with the 6.5-284 in accuracy and barrel life.

    Time will tell if I have any clue what I am doing, so far I think I must have dumb lucked into some decent rounds /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif!!

    Thanks for your thoughs as always they are good ones!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  11. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Time will tell if I have any clue what I am doing,

    [/ QUOTE ]


    I think you don't need to worry about that! If you didn't realize your livin on the edge, then you wouldn't be pushing the envelope.


    [ QUOTE ]
    so far I think I must have dumb lucked into some decent rounds !!


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Does dumb luck mean meticulously handcrafting and designing something into a successful long range whacker? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
    And who cares about the naysayers of such well laid out plans?
     
  12. brianwinzor

    brianwinzor Well-Known Member

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    Kirby, I will certainly be watching closely the progress of your .224AM with interest, as I am embarking on a similar project.

    At the moment Richard's 100grain .224 ULD's (together with some 125, 130, &amp; 156grn 257's) are in transit across the Pacific to Oz, and won't arrive until mid November. I have also ordered some 107 grain bullets when they become available.

    As my gunsmith won't be able to do my job until early 2006, I still have time to assemble the components, and may also be able to follow your progress with the 224AM.

    Since, I became aware that Richard was producing 100 and 107 grain bullets, I have given a lot of thought whether to use a case larger than the .224 Clark (63.8 grains).

    I have considered using the 22/25-06 AI (est 70.0 grns), 22/7mmRSAUM (est 72.0 grns), and 22/270 WSM (est 75.0 grns), and at this stage still intend to go with the .224 Clark. (already have dies, formed .224 Clark cases, and 100 257 Roberts new brass)

    My major concern with using the other cases, is at at this stage I don't have a ball powder with a burning rate slower than my current stock of H870, to be able to take advantage of the extra capacity of those larger cases. I realise that you have access to surplus W872, which appears to be slightly slower burning than H870.

    My research indicates that the only other slower burning ball powder is NobelSports Vectan SP13 which was specifically made for the Browning 50 cal. Refer to this website http://www.peterlawman.co.uk/vectan.php I intend trying to get some Vectan SP13, but may take some time.

    During chronographing the 80 grain Sierra MK in my last .224 Clark,(25.25 inch barrel) I found that a load of 61.0 grains (base of neck)of H870 produced 3658 fps at normal pressure. So I estimate in that barrel a similar load with an 85 grain bullet would probably produce maximum pressure.

    Using my previous data as a base, I estimate that when using the Wildcat 100 grain ULD, I should get between 3,250 and 3,350 fps, using about 58.0 grains of H870,(about 95% load density), and with the 107 ULD, about 3150 - 3250 using about 56.0 grains H870.(about 93% Load density)

    My 38 years of reloading, has taught me that at 95- 100 LD, it is usually relatively easy to get acceptable accuracy, but below that level, as airspace increases it becomes increasingly finicky to achieve the desired accuracy.

    As a cross check on my projected velocity estimates for the .224 Clark, my last two 25/06 rifles produced about 3325 - 3350 fps with the 100 grain Nosler BT at maximum pressure, and I estimate that a 25/06 Remington case necked down to .224 would have a capacity of about 64.0 grains, which is about identical to that of the .224 Clark (and a previous 22/284).

    I will probably be ordering through a local rifle club, a Krieger 1 in 7 twist number 3 profile 27inch blank that will finish up at about 26.25 inches, and should allow me one set back and rechamber. I probably will follow your lead and order my first 3 groove barrel, but I note on the Krieger website, they don't believe there is a specific advantage for the 3 groove over the 4 groove, etc.

    I seek your opinion on whether a Sako AV action would be a suitable choice, as I have a worn out Sako barrel on the older of my 2 25/06AI, and it would simplify things for me if I used that action. Bill (my gunsmith) has for 30 years always recommended using a Remington 700 action for accurate rifles. However, he was obviously able to successfully bed the Sako L61R action in my custom 25/06AI, as that consistantly shoots sub 0.5moa.

    Yesterday I looked at the new Remington SPS (Retail $A800) as a possible donor action, but the blued bolt left me cold, and also worried as to quality. Am I correct in assuming that there would be no quality control differences between the various 700 action models?

    I will be also following with interest your smaller (target) 25 cal case, as I have been looking for rimless case of about 85 - 90 grains to use up the supply of 142 and 156 grain ULD's I have been acquiring.

    I hope the 224AM is a success, and as an avid wildcatter myself, I certainly appreciate how you are continually prepared to push the existing boundaries, and readily share your knowledge with visitors to this forum. Regards, Brian.
     
  13. Larry Morris

    Larry Morris Active Member

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    Kirby,
    I also am following this thread with much interest due to my very unfavorable success with the 22x284 back in the spring of this year.
    I have exchanged info with yourself and Brian Winzor about the problems that I had before screwing the barrel off and calling it quits.
    My wife bought me Hawkeye bore scope as a birthday gift (no guys you can’t have her – she’s a keeper) and I couldn’t find any flaws in the Lilja 26” 1:8 three groove barrel. Problem was that every bullet I shot (even Richards) came apart when velocities exceeded 3500 fps. Even below 3500 fps accuracy was not acceptable.
    Richard did contact me after I removed the barrel to inform me that he was in the process of making the 100 &amp; 107 gr. bullets but at that point and time I was so disgusted after putting so much time into the project that I put it on the back burner. I have a total of 157 rounds through the tube and tried every make of bullet I could get my hands on above 75 grains.

    If you go with a 1:8 twist and get your project gun to give acceptable accuracy and velocities then I’m going to screw that sucker back on and order which ever bullet you suggest.
    If this happens and I still can not get the expected results then I will most likely order a reamer with your reamers specs and rechamber the Lilja.

    Keep us posted.
     
  14. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Your problem is more to do with the three groove rifling design and the very thin jacketed bullets that are common with the current 80 gr match bullets.

    In 224 and 243 calibers, the 3 groove rifling design is very hard on thin jacketed, heavy, long VLD bullets.

    I have seen the exact same results you are getting with several big 22 and 6mm fast twist rifles using the 3 groove barrels.

    I have also used the fast twist 6 groove barrels and they have proven much more bullet friendly in these situations offering significantly more velocity potential.

    Richards 100 gr ULD RBBT is a heavier jacket so we will see how it survives this adventure.

    Kirby Allen(50)