Is ultra mag really necessary

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by Guest, Mar 16, 2003.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Okay, for my first long range gun I was thinking of the 300 ultra mag. But for my first lng range rig do I really need all that? I figure it will take me awhile to work out to 1000 yards anyway! So if I plan on staying inside 1k wouldn't 300 win mag or wsm in bull barrel be a better way to start? Boyd aren't you shooting a 300 wsm at the 1k match? That would take a PA deer that far and closer right? Just like archery all about placement. All I need is to stick with bullets with high bc. and practice?? I'm not sure but the 300 win mag, and wsm should with the right bullet have enough energy to 1K for white tail. Thanks for input. [​IMG]
     
  2. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

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    Bubb

    For a new shooter desiring to shoot to 1000 yards on game I usually recommend a 300 Win Mag. Get a good rifle from a reputable gunsmith (setup for Federal Gold Medal Match 190 load). Buy a set of heavy duty rings and bases, install a good scope and buy 1000 rounds (single LOT number) of factory Federal Gold Medal Match (GMM) 190's. IMHO you now have an accurate and capable rifle that is designed to shoot factory ammo. You can reload for it if you wish or you can shoot the Federal GMM. I shoot/hunt tactical (sniper) style, bipod and sandsock, first round hit scenario...
    If the 300 Win Mag GMM ammo is not to your liking you can sell it for your cost quite easily (assuming you buy it at a good price (www.ammoman.com or the like).
    When you go for your second or subsequent rifle (post 300 WM) you can sell the 300 WM or rebarrel/chamber it but you've had the opportunity to learn on a rifle shooting known accurate ammo with a minimum of tinkering. (Less tinkering means more shooting and more (good style/proper technique) shooting shoot equate to a better shooter.)
     

  3. jcpython357

    jcpython357 Well-Known Member

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    Bubb, Just checking out my ballistic tables, and a 30cal. 165gr boattail loaded to 3000fps has 759ftlbs @1k, I'm no expert but sounds a bit marginal for deer, not that it won't take one down. Alot of things can play with that bullet at that range, and you need a rifle that puts 5 shots into a 10" pie plate at 1k to make a humane kill. Oh, it's nice to say I shot a deer at 1000yds, I'd like to say that myself, but like Clint Eastwood says, "A mans got to know his limitations" Talk to Kevin Thomas, 'Master shooter'(Chief Ballistian from Sierra) how he feels about shooting past 400yds. Please Someone tell me if I'm not making any sence. Jay [​IMG]
     
  4. *WyoWhisper*

    *WyoWhisper* Guest

    Jay,
    you do make sense but.. this is LRH so hunting past 400 yards is what we are looking for...

    In my data...

    the 168 gr SMK from the 300 winny you can achieve 3200 fps fairly easily...
    that will give you 1054 ft lbs at 800.. enough for deer..
    I feel you need 1000 ft lbs for deer and 2000 ft lbs for Elk... just my .02

    If you shoot the 190 SMK you can achieve 2900fpa fairly easily with the winny...
    that gives you 860 lbs at 1k and if you can get 3000fps that will give you 938 ft lbs at 1K.
    You need 3075fps ( muzzle velocity ) to get to 1000 ft lbs at 1K using 190s and my program...

    now all this doesn't mean a freakin thing if you are not accurate.. I have been shooting the 308 for 2 years.. to get myself to a level where I am confident to kill out to 1K. My hunting limitation for deer with the 308 was 750 yards. So I am having a 300 RUM built as we type this to get me to 1K and beyond...

    I have shot several 3" groups at 500 yards with my 308 and I havn't shot for score at 1K but I have consitiently hit volleyball sized targets throughout the 2 years at over 1K and now I feel I am ready to go further...

    I shoot alone alot so if you have a buddy you will probobly get better faster....

    but all I can say is practice practice paractice.. Just this past summer to now I have shot 1052 rounds....according to my notebook... that includes 70 rounds on sat at distances from 500 to 1150...

    FYI....

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Darryl Cassel

    Darryl Cassel Well-Known Member

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    Jay

    Most ballistics tables, or I should say loading books, you can throw out the window.
    They are based on short barrel test rifles that will NEVER duplicate the actual ballistics we get from our over sized wildcat cartridges and the velocity we need and get, to do the job. You will probably not find our cartridges in a loading book either.

    Even the boys at Sierra don't use what we have been using for many years now.

    We can make humane kills a lot further then just 1000 yards. 1000 Yards is sometimes just the starting point for our guns.

    Talk to Rich Marcholtz at Sierra and he will enlighten you as to what we do. I report to him every year as the the kills we make with the Sierra MK.

    Loading books are based on 26" (or shorter) factory guns and the loads are many times not near max, we have found.

    Our rifles have 30" to 40" barrels and the length does make a "BIG" difference.

    Hope that helped [​IMG]

    DC

    [ 03-17-2003: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
     
  6. Randy in Va

    Randy in Va Well-Known Member

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    Bubb, I see "Life in Potter". IF that is Potter County, Pa. please email me.

    Randy Cullinan
    rcullinan@direcway.com
     
  7. Darryl Cassel

    Darryl Cassel Well-Known Member

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    Randy

    I'm in Cameron County PA which borders Potter County.

    Are you looking for a place to "stretch the legs" of that 408?????
    I have it but, you have to use it before the leaves get on the trees.

    DC

    [ 03-17-2003: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
     
  8. jcpython357

    jcpython357 Well-Known Member

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    WW&DC, You guys are so out of my league I won't argue that one bit, I'm just thinking of Bubb who it seems (or maybe not)to be an inexperienced longrange shooter(speaking for myself) who is probably going to get himself a 300WSM or a 7mmWSM (which is what I would get for shooting LR on my budget) in a factory Winchester Laminated WSM Model 70 or a Coyote(Really like the way these rifles feels, by the way) And it would do a fantastic job out to around 900yds, if the shooter did his part, and I will practice plenty before I would shoot out that far. I don't know if everybody who shoots that far wants or needs to invest in the equipment you guys are talking about, do I have to take out a second mortage on my house to buy something like that? 30-40"barrel! I don't even know what a 300RUM is. [​IMG] I was wondering, how do the MK work on deer anyway? And do you use them only at extended distance, example [​IMG]ast 800yds? Jay [​IMG]
     
  9. Darryl Cassel

    Darryl Cassel Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Jay the MK will shoot a lot further then 800 yards. Most of us do use the MK for longrange and extreme longrange hunting.

    You can find all this information in the left column or archives of the posts from over the years.

    The information you want is there.

    The rifle you mentioned will do the job quite well at the range you mentioned.

    Darryl Cassel

    PS---Most times, the equipment you want happens to be VERY expensive the further you want to reach out.
    Take care and good luck [​IMG]
     
  10. Mysticplayer

    Mysticplayer Writers Guild

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    Bubb, if staying inside 1000yds, there are a lot of possibilities from 6.5, 7 and 30cal. The first part is making sure that you have an accurate rifle and scope. Most good production guns with a little tuning will work. All you need is consistent MOA performance at long range.

    Take the time and look through as many scopes as you can. You need clarity and resolution, with reliable adjustments. Lots of mag is not necessary (10to 16X is all you need).

    You have to be able to range so a laser rangefinder is next. I would look for the Leica 800 as they are on sale now.

    Barrel length. Decide if this is going to be a portable or bench rifle. The longer and heavier the barrel, the better- free performance and reduced recoil. The longer the barrel, the smaller the case to get the same performance. Or, more performance from the same case.

    NOW we get to the cartridge. You have to be able to afford to shoot this rig so look at bullet/component costs. Reloading is a very big plus.

    For deer, a fast 6.5 or 7mm is plenty. 6.5-284, 6.5-06 stand or AI, 6.5WSM are all excellent. 3000fps with a 142gr MK or Amax will be plenty out to 1000yds.

    The new 270WSM may just be the ticket with 140 or 150gr SST bullets.

    In 7mm, the 7WSM/Rem mag, 7Gibbs, and even the STW (???) are excellent choices. The 162gr Amax or SST at 3000fps will be a tough combo to beat.

    In the 30cal, yes, the win mag and WSM are great choices. 165gr 180gr SST or Amax, equivalent MK will all get the job done when launched around 3000fps (see a trend here?).

    I am very partial to the 30Gibbs (improved and modified 30-06). Getting performance very close to the WSM (identical to the RSAUM) without the bother and cost. Mine is on a Parker Hale action and a 26" barrel w/muzzle brake. With a B&L 6X24 4000Elite, it tips the scales at 10lbs. Still light enough to be portable, yet has the moxie to reach out as far as I can range with my Leica 800.

    As you have already read, you need to get the bullet into the boiler room and any of the above will have enough oomph to take deer. With these easily expanding bullets, as long as you have over 1200fps at impact, the bullets will work.

    Practise, Practise, Practise. That is the real difference between success and failure. All the equipment in the world is not going to help you dope the wind or know how to follow through.

    As to amount of "energy" to kill a deer, ask yourself this question. If you held a handgun in 45ACP/9mm luger/38 special against the ribs or shoulder of a deer and pulled the trigger, would this kill the animal?

    I hope you answered yes. Look up how much vel/energy these cartridges put out. Makes you wonder.

    So, is the RUM necessary - NO. However, if you already have one, then you will not need to rebarrel or get a new rifle when you are ready to go further out.

    Jerry
     
  11. milanuk

    milanuk Well-Known Member

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    Jerry,

    Interesting analogy. I've thought of something similar in the past, and wondered what it is about some calibers that make them 'work' the way they do.

    The way I was thinking of it was when I was discussing the effective range of a .223 Remington w/ someone. Most people consider it nominally a 300yd cartridge for varmint hunting, plus some for small stuff like gophers and maybe prairie dogs, and minus some for tougher critters like coyotes.

    Now, I don't think too many people would argue (there's always a few ;p ) that any of the above animals is not long for this world if you take a .22 LR, like say, a Remington Thunderbolt, and put it where it's gonna hurt. This load makes (according to the packaging, something like 130ft-lbs at the muzzle. So does this mean the .223 Remington w/ a 50gr Sierra BlitzKing is an effective round out to over 500yds, as it retains over 220ft-lb to the 500yd line (Sierra #4), assuming a 3300fps m.v. What about the 80gr Sierra MK? It holds 200ft-lbs out to 1k. While I'm not going to stand there and try and catch one in my hands, I think it'd be one of the last rounds I, or anyone else w/ a choice in the matter, would choose for a LR varminting round.

    I realize that this is where bullet design for expansion at a given impact velocity comes into play, making the difference btwn just punching a hole clean thru, blowing up in the fat layer, or a small entrance hole and detonating inside [​IMG]

    Not necessarily disagreeing or agreeing w/ you, just yakkin'.

    Monte
     
  12. Brent

    Brent Well-Known Member

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    Monte,

    My buddy Charlie, he got his new 300 Ultra BDLSS a month or two before I took him up the highway to Paxon to get his Caribou. We were all the way up there and one was running toward us across the Paxon lake. We jumped out, I checked the range at he trotted toward us and to are left, he was 300 yards on the money. Charlie slides down the bank and rests his, WHAT THE HELL! He's got his AR-15???? [​IMG] POW!! Flat on the ice he went!!! One freakin shot! I was shocked, I've seen wolves just keep on running when hit by the 22-250's!! Charlie jumped up as I told him I thought he was bringing his Ultra. [​IMG] Hell some shots could be at some serious long range! He said he kills them all the time with the 223, killed several moose with them too! He's got a trophy "house" that puts most guys to shame and he's only 45 too!

    Here's my suggestion FWIW, get a 300 Ultra have a brake put on it and practice like there's no tomarrow out to 1000 yards, the farther you practice at the better. Start saving more cash while your practicing. When you shoot better than it does with it's best loads you'll have enough to rebarrel with a custom and deck the thing out, or just start over and sell it when the custom rig is done so you can keep practicing and hunting till then. Stay away from the .223 though. [​IMG]
     
  13. jcpython357

    jcpython357 Well-Known Member

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    Brent, How many rounds can you put through a 300 ultra before the barrel is shot out? I figure no more than 700 and there goes your accuracy and vel. or maybe not, I read in a past Rifleshooter, this writer knew a guy with a 257WEATHERBY who had to change his barrel every 400. Well, when I called Rem. last year they only charge 220 for a new barrel and reciever, if somebody wants to go that route. This is for all you guys who shoot with the slow burning powders, in that same article they basically said the slower burning powders in maxed out magnums burn your barrel out the fastest, how do you fellows feel on that subject? Jay [​IMG]

    [ 03-18-2003: Message edited by: Jay Gorski ]
     
  14. Darryl Cassel

    Darryl Cassel Well-Known Member

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    I know of magnum LR rifles that have 2000 rounds through them and are still shooting fantastic.

    I know of others who have shot theirs out in 400 rounds.

    It depends on how much you heat them up and the quality of barrel steel. Some guys use the LR stuff for woodchuck hunting in the hot summer. If your not careful, you will overheat doing this.

    The World Record ten shot group of 3.151" fired at Williamsport by John Voinda was fired by a large magnum with 1800 rounds through it. The Hoover family of shooters at Williamsport, change their barrels after 2000 rounds and most of them are still shooting well. They shoot the 6.5/284 though which is not a big mag.

    Depends on how much care you give your barrels.

    Don't overheat the barrel and make sure the copper gets cleaned from them too.

    DC