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Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..
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<blockquote data-quote="Brent" data-source="post: 40719" data-attributes="member: 99"><p>Ric,</p><p>Is it the wind, MV ES, or other problems with a rifles ability to hold consistant POI?</p><p>I think this really goes to the heart of the matter. If you shoot 10 shots at seperate targets, and POI is within .5 MOA of POA on all of them, verses a rifle that shoots a 1 MOA group on one target at the same POA, which is more important here? </p><p></p><p>Aplication possibly? </p><p>If you're shooting at 500 yards and POI is switching all over the bull at 2 or 3 MOA in both planes, is it wind, a problem with the load or rifle? How well it consistantly groups up closer will help you decide this. </p><p></p><p>1,2,3,5 or 10 shots? Makes no difference really, so long as you know how consistant the load is, the more you shoot it, the more you'll know. </p><p></p><p>If barrel fouling, heat build up between groups affect the consistancy of the groups, and I can manage this, I may have a consistant load. </p><p></p><p>If that means shooting a couple foulers then a 3 shot group each session, then cleaning again, that would suck, but if it was consistant day after day, after day, add 'em up and and you've effectively shot that number of rounds for group IMO. </p><p></p><p>Statistics are statistics though, and number of shots does factor in. Apples to apples comparison is truely the only way to compare rifles abilities. If one wants to compare their rifles ability to my 3 shot groups, shoot 3 shot groups in your rifle a few times and compare 'em then. To me, the BR guys have plenty of rifles to compare theirs to, to determine their 10 shot grouping ability. If I want to see how mine stacks up, I can shoot 3, 5 or 10 and see. </p><p></p><p>I like how Michael often shoots his 308 though. 1 shot at each range on a paper plate. If you shoot 1 shot with your bore in the same condition you'll be hunting with it in, and over time you see what consistancy it produces (vertical mainly), you'll be learning what it will really be capable of, as well as what range you can keep them as near your POA as you need to for the particular kill zone size your zeroing in on. </p><p></p><p>To me, my first shot within a fraction of 1 MOA from POA at various ranges is what I'm after. The number of times I can repeat it might be tested at different ranges, or the same. What's important is, whether or not you find it repeatable and how far POI is from POA measured in MOA on a consistant basis. This gives me an honest number I can use, and count on in the field. </p><p></p><p>If I shoot 20 rounds and want to further know the consistantcy of a load, I think my time is better spend shooting at 10-20 different ranges with those shots than just one. If I can hold 1 MOA vertical, and 1.5 MOA horizontal, session after session, that's the best I can do at that point. But, I will have learned much more along with it by shooting at various ranges than just setting at 100, or 300 yards testing the load out. </p><p></p><p>I am quite confident that if I were to shoot up against Michael at various ranges, me with my best load, and Michael with a medioker load, he would out shoot me every **** time, without difficulty. </p><p></p><p>I do a lot of practicing at a set range for groups, but varying the range enough to feel confident to hit OK at nearly all I shoot at. Michael on the other hand shoots at varying ranges on almost a religious basis, so is much better prepared in a moments notice. </p><p></p><p>One or two shots is all I'm likely to ever shoot at one animal, and if that don't work, I'd better rethink why I tried to at that range. Matching POI with POA is not only a measure of the rig's capability, but the shooter and his abilities too, which is often much more important at LR.</p><p></p><p>Ric,</p><p>Some of these guys look at your groups and wonder what it would look like with 5 or 10 shots, most of which never post pix of their targets, but sit back and be critical. You know how well you rig shoots, and I think it shoots great too BTW, so don't let these guys get you down, and keep posting your pix!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Brent, post: 40719, member: 99"] Ric, Is it the wind, MV ES, or other problems with a rifles ability to hold consistant POI? I think this really goes to the heart of the matter. If you shoot 10 shots at seperate targets, and POI is within .5 MOA of POA on all of them, verses a rifle that shoots a 1 MOA group on one target at the same POA, which is more important here? Aplication possibly? If you're shooting at 500 yards and POI is switching all over the bull at 2 or 3 MOA in both planes, is it wind, a problem with the load or rifle? How well it consistantly groups up closer will help you decide this. 1,2,3,5 or 10 shots? Makes no difference really, so long as you know how consistant the load is, the more you shoot it, the more you'll know. If barrel fouling, heat build up between groups affect the consistancy of the groups, and I can manage this, I may have a consistant load. If that means shooting a couple foulers then a 3 shot group each session, then cleaning again, that would suck, but if it was consistant day after day, after day, add 'em up and and you've effectively shot that number of rounds for group IMO. Statistics are statistics though, and number of shots does factor in. Apples to apples comparison is truely the only way to compare rifles abilities. If one wants to compare their rifles ability to my 3 shot groups, shoot 3 shot groups in your rifle a few times and compare 'em then. To me, the BR guys have plenty of rifles to compare theirs to, to determine their 10 shot grouping ability. If I want to see how mine stacks up, I can shoot 3, 5 or 10 and see. I like how Michael often shoots his 308 though. 1 shot at each range on a paper plate. If you shoot 1 shot with your bore in the same condition you'll be hunting with it in, and over time you see what consistancy it produces (vertical mainly), you'll be learning what it will really be capable of, as well as what range you can keep them as near your POA as you need to for the particular kill zone size your zeroing in on. To me, my first shot within a fraction of 1 MOA from POA at various ranges is what I'm after. The number of times I can repeat it might be tested at different ranges, or the same. What's important is, whether or not you find it repeatable and how far POI is from POA measured in MOA on a consistant basis. This gives me an honest number I can use, and count on in the field. If I shoot 20 rounds and want to further know the consistantcy of a load, I think my time is better spend shooting at 10-20 different ranges with those shots than just one. If I can hold 1 MOA vertical, and 1.5 MOA horizontal, session after session, that's the best I can do at that point. But, I will have learned much more along with it by shooting at various ranges than just setting at 100, or 300 yards testing the load out. I am quite confident that if I were to shoot up against Michael at various ranges, me with my best load, and Michael with a medioker load, he would out shoot me every **** time, without difficulty. I do a lot of practicing at a set range for groups, but varying the range enough to feel confident to hit OK at nearly all I shoot at. Michael on the other hand shoots at varying ranges on almost a religious basis, so is much better prepared in a moments notice. One or two shots is all I'm likely to ever shoot at one animal, and if that don't work, I'd better rethink why I tried to at that range. Matching POI with POA is not only a measure of the rig's capability, but the shooter and his abilities too, which is often much more important at LR. Ric, Some of these guys look at your groups and wonder what it would look like with 5 or 10 shots, most of which never post pix of their targets, but sit back and be critical. You know how well you rig shoots, and I think it shoots great too BTW, so don't let these guys get you down, and keep posting your pix! [/QUOTE]
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