Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

[Brent]

Points well taken Darryl. I do however cut the factory rifle some slack when it lacks better trigger pull, bedding, recoil lug, barrel and truing.

How much slack, and what would be repectable considering each rifles state of work is really part of the question though. Keeping in the kill zone is a valid point to determining a max effective range in varying conditions though. I see no reason 5 shots would be needed, just enough shots period to make me feel confident at different ranges to see what the gun is consitantly capable of is all. How many shots across the course in all? I could do it in 20, but 30 or more makes me feel better.

 

[Sako7STW]

I agree, a bi-pod is harder to shoot from than a bench. For one you must have more contact with the gun then what you do from a bench. I know my groups open up a good 25% from rest to the bi-pod. I think a part of that is due to the weight of the rifle sitting on the flexible forearm of my TRG-S and it makes contact with the bbl changing harmonics.

If it is a factory hunting rifle, I think MOA should be the standerd. I dont own a factory rifle that wont do sub moa as of right now from a bench. If it is a custom Hunting rifle .5-.75 MOA should be expected. I know if I paid 1-2K more than a factory rifle, It dang well better shoot near twice as good or a smith is getting a gun shoved somewhere and he isn't going to like it.

My vote is for hunting purposes the 3 shot group is most practicle and a 5 shot if your trying to show off. I dont like the heat my bbl see's with 5. I want to practice but I also want my gun to last as long as possible. If I cant hit the critter in 3 then I am stalking closer to it or finding another one.

 

[MAX]

Interesting discussion.

Wonder if it's over, my mouse wants to take a nap...

Bench v. bipod? Apples and watermelons.
I still think it's relative to application, which seems to fit with much of what I've read here. DC said it pretty well as far as guidelines go I think. Brent and JR too.

Wyo, if y'all have a shoot out, just to make it interesting make everybody hump their iron 1500' up or down hill first. Down here I'd have 'em trapse thru about a half mile of cypress first. It's all a matter of local context. BTW, not going to make it out your way in Aug., maybe next time. Have fun.

 

[John Burns]

On the subject as to whether a "custom" rifle shoots better than a factory you have to consider that Remington puts out many rifles a day that will shoot to the potential of the cartridge they are chambered for. It would be impossible for a custom to do better than the best Remington happens to put together today.

In other word if we figure Remington puts a certain percentage of it's chambers in the middle of the bore, a certain percentage of its' crowns are again square and concentric and a certain percentage of barrels are dimensionally correct then a certain percentage of it's rifles will shoot as well as any custom using the same internal clearances in the throat and neck.

If the only reason you spend your money on a custom Hunting rifle is to shoot small groups you are missing the boat. This is a common misunderstanding of those who shoot Benchrest but have little real hunting experience in harsh conditions. I have seen way to many rifles built by "Benchrest Smiths" that shoot extremely well but can't feed a round out of the magazine, have a throat so tight it pulls bullets if a loaded round is removed from the chamber, a stock designed to ride bags in free recoil, ect. A custom hunting rifle should be as accurate as the best factory rifles are but also should be more reliable, durable and easier to shoot in the field of bipods, shooting sticks, backpacks, or whatever rest you can find.

I know a rifle can be shot to it's accuracy potential off of a bipod and rear support, in fact some stocks with a rough finish will tend to grab the bags and I believe shoot better off a bipod if the shooter is having a good day. It is harder to shoot a rifle to it's potential off of a bipod but not impossible.

Boyd Heaton,

Sounds like fun on trying you some day. Is that offer open to anybody? Can you make it out to Wyowhispers get together?? Would be a fun time.

 

[STL_Shooter]

I would say that shooting from a bipod is definitely different that shooting from a sand-buffered front rest. The vibration of the rifle is way different which markedly affects the behavior of the rifle and POI.

I've proven to myself and many others that they can be shot with extreme accuracy - that's a tired old argument around here.

I've shot lots of 5 shot groups at 600 yards around 1/3 MOA, a number under 1/3 MOA, and a precious few around 1/4 MOA. Several of my groups have a bullet's diameter or less of vertical component in them.

So, while shooting accurately off a bipod is different than doing so off a benchrest, it is incredibly possible...

 

[BillLarson]

Hunting Rifles.....I get mine ready.. [email protected] shoot once at a target,5 mornings in a row....hunting temp...November30F...(same target posted each day) then cold shot evaluate.....It works...

 

[Darryl Cassel]

STL
You wrote;
I've shot lots of 5 shot groups at 600 yards around 1/3 MOA, a number under 1/3 MOA, and a precious few around 1/4 MOA. Several of my groups have a bullet's diameter or less of vertical component in them.

So, while shooting accurately off a bipod is different than doing so off a benchrest, it is incredibly possible...
_________________________________________

Either you must be the best shots on this or any forum there is or have one of the finest rifles ever built to be able to shoot off a bipod that well.

Have you tried to better that with a good front and rear rest from a bench? I'll bet it would do better overall?

You should enter that gun in some 1000 yard contests that shoot 5 shots if it will hold 1/3 MOA at 600 yards. I just wonder how it would do at 1000 yards and I don't mean that sarcasticly.
Take it to 1000 yards and let us know how 5 shots did as per a group and using the bipod.
If it holds 1/3 MOA that's half way to a new record which is 1 1/2" (5 shots) at 1000 yards from a bench.

Let us know.

Later
DC

 

[BillLarson]

Sorry Double posted....Didn`t realize what page we`re on..!!!!

 

[STL_Shooter]

Darryl,

Though you and I have gone 'round on this one before, I'll indulge for a bit.

My shooting technique is nothing special. I use what most would consider extreme shoulder pressure. I strive to press the trigger, let the thing push me, and watch the crosshairs through the recoil. I do pay attention to the vector of the forces I'm applying at the shoulder, face, grip and trigger - but who's to say I'm doing any of that right...

My reloading technique is meticulous - I won't go into the detail here - but it's nothing more than the best benchresters do, and less than some. I will say that my loaded rounds have almost no measurable runout.

The only time I've shot groups with it at 1000 is in gusting 8-15 mph winds, and shot 4 5-shot groups that were approximately 6-8 inches in diameter.

I've never held close to 1/3 MOA past my pet 600 yard range. At 1000, I consider myself extremely fortunate to have held what I did.

I have two young boys, own and manage two information technology companies and serve in a leadership capacity at church, so I have little time to compete. I'm happy to get range time to myself - it's therapy.

I'm not a competitive person by nature - I think I know what I am, and am not. I certainly don't need to weave tall tales on the web to make myself feel better - so what I say is the truth as I know it.

So I think my rifle and loads are special. S1 thinks it's an honest .25 MOA rifle, I think it's an honest 1/3 MOA.

But me? I'm nothing special - and I'm cool with that.

 

[Darryl Cassel]

STL

Thanks for the informative reply.

Good shooting to you and off of a bipod, your doing "MUCH" better then most can, especially if your shooting a 2" five shot group at 600 yards.

Your "one" of very few people whp can do it off a bipod with regularity.

Later
DC

 

[STL_Shooter]

You're welcome, Darryl. Let me add one more item to be perfectly clear on the regularity thing. The wind conditions on our range when I have shot like this are always the same - extremely steady 2-3 mph full value left to right.

So when these "perfect" conditions exist, my friends and I believe that we have the situation we need to shoot our very best.

 

[Boyd Heaton]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Boyd Heaton,

Sounds like fun on trying you some day. Is that offer open to anybody? Can you make it out to Wyowhispers get together?? Would be a fun time.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Would be fun to shoot with you someday too.And yes it is open to anybody.The statement was made because of the post that was directed toward me.About the factory gun.And not seeing proof.I don't have to prove myself to anyone.I would however sit down and shoot with anyone on this board.And If they beat me.I would be the first to shake their hand and tell them good shooting.There is no B.S. here.And ANYONE on this board that knows me in person will back me up on that statement.And no I will not make Wyo's in Aug.Work and the 1000 yard BR season does not allow the time....Maybe someday tho.

 

[*WyoWhisper*]

I heard Shawns is a shooter...

I can't say I agree that shooting off a bi-pod is as stable as a bench... if it was there would be more guys setting 1000 yards records like that...

 

[Darryl Cassel]

STL and Boyd

STL
I still believe that rifle of yours in a real good fitting front and back adjustable rest, will shoot even better then it does now, from a bipod.
I have yet to see "ANY" bipod gun do better then someone can do with that "same" rifle from a bench and rest. The rests must fit the rifle though for this test.

It sounds like you have your range figured out very well and a good time to test the two shooting ways, would be when the wind and conditions are at the very best.
At Williamsport the letup is usually around 7:30PM in the summer months.
Would be interesting to see what that rifle would do at 1000 yards using "BOTH" shooting styles and doing your very best in each.
My money says the bench and rests wins?

If that rifle were mine, I would want to see what it would do with 10 shots fired at 1000 yards just to know how it could do if it were at a range that did shoot 10 shots for record. Would be intersting.
I would make a guess and say your 5 shot groups of 6 and 8" at 1000 yards now, would open up to 10" and 12" or more, with the addition of 5 more shots. Most rifles do when going from 5 to 10 shots.

Boyd

I will come in here and repeat what you have said for everyone.

"To anyone who doubts Boyds ability".

Boyd is a competitior and a very good one.

He will shoot right along with anyone and will also humble himself when he gets beat and lets the person doing so, know it.

There is "NO" BS to his thoughts and expressions and you might just get a real *** wuppin if you try him out, especially at Williamsport.
He has had much success with the Longrange hunting also and I rate him up there with some of the good ones who have done it for years.

Good luck to you again this year Boyd. Hope you do even better then last year unless your shooting against me and in the same relay.

My lawnmower is tuned up Pal.

Later
DC