Is it a mistake

Discussion in 'Long Range Scopes and Other Optics' started by macv, Sep 6, 2004.

  1. macv

    macv Active Member

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    Hi shooters, Tomorrow I will be ordering a Bushnell 4200, 6x24 Elite. Now, most of my shooting will be at paper but someday I was hoping to do some PD hunting and maybe some other critters. I have always wanted a scope with the mill dot system and thats what Im leaning towards at this time. Am I making a mistake in getting this scope if it will be used mostly for paper punching? Will I have enough of the center cross hairs to properly address a 3/4" dot? [​IMG] Thanks for looking. Or should I just get the Multi X ret.

    [ 09-06-2004: Message edited by: macv ]
     
  2. TOM H

    TOM H Well-Known Member

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    I got my first mil dot scope last year and have it on a 6.5x284 it's one of the leupold LR 30mm models still trying to get use to it. For paper shooting I like the dot with fch. One good thing with the leupold scope is can always change reticle with the factory or Premier. Well good luck.
     

  3. brian b

    brian b Well-Known Member

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    I am sure I will have many people disagree
    with me but I have proven it to myself and
    other's that it is better to make a drop
    chart and click your scope in than any fancy
    reticle. The military uses MIL-DOT reticles
    because they are faster to use,but if you have the time and a ballistic program it is
    much more accurate to dial your scope in for
    the range provided your scope is of sufficent
    quality to return to 0
    B
     
  4. Jeff In TX

    Jeff In TX Well-Known Member

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    Brian B,

    Not sure if I'm confused by your statement or you're confused.

    Special forces operators and scout snipers in the military don't use mildots as hold overs. They practice countless hours and are damn good at using them for what they were designed for which is range estimation. Once they have the range they dial into that distance. The marine corp uses the Unertl 10X which has a BDC calibrated to the load they are shooting.

    I think I know what you're saying,

    If you're buying a scope with a mil-dot for paper punching. I wouldn't waist money on a mil-dot. Buy a reticle that will suit and meet your shooting requirements.

    Mil-dots are a very simple method of range finding once your understand the basic formulas. But they are something you really have to practice at to get good.

    Just my $0.02 worth

    [ 09-06-2004: Message edited by: Jeff In TX ]
     
  5. macv

    macv Active Member

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    Hi all, well I did it. ordered the 4200 Elite today and did opted for the mil dot. When I get it I will take it to the range and look through it and see if it will suit my needs. If not, I'll send it back and get the duplex ret. I guess this is the only way to really check it out. What I don't understand is why did I pay 100.00 less, than some other stores are selling theirs for, I sure hope that a 4200 Elite at store "A" is the same scope as it is at store "B". Not that I am complaining about it, just wondering. Why do you think that is. [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  6. Jeff In TX

    Jeff In TX Well-Known Member

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    Macv,

    Congrats on the scope. When you get, set your target up at exactly 100 yards. Got to pretty close to exact.

    On you target use the blue painters masking tape and make an "L" with the tape exactly 3.6 inches verticle and 3.6" horizontal.

    3.6" equals 1 mil at 100 yards.

    Use your zoom ring and dial it in until the "L" covers 1 full mil-dot top to bottom and left to right. Mark your power ring with that setting.

    Now your set and ready to go. If you want the formula for using the mil-dot for range finding, let us know and we'll be glad to give it to you.

    Best of luck with your new scope. [​IMG]

    [ 09-07-2004: Message edited by: Jeff In TX ]
     
  7. macv

    macv Active Member

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    Jeff, yes ,I would like to have your formula. The only thing that I have at present is the book called The Ultimate Sniper which explains the mil dot system. It is not too difficult to understand but if your system is easier, let's go for it. And thanks for what you have already told me about setting it up. The scope arrives on Mon. and I can't wait to get it. I have to be out of town starting tomorrow and won't be home until Mon. when it is due. Will be patiently awaiting your Formula. Thank you. [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  8. Steve Douglass

    Steve Douglass Well-Known Member

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    This isn't a fact, but a general rule of thumb, when using the mil-dot reticle for distance summation, the reticle is designed for 3.6 MOA at a specific power which is either at 10X or that scopes greatest power. For example: Leupold MK4 LR/T 6.5-20x50 Mil-Dot reticle must be out to 20X when judging distance. However, I do have others that must be set to 10X. The scopes that use the First Focal Plane negate this issue. Leupold should be working on that and Springfield Armory has theirs coming out soon. Check the optics manual, it should say or contact the manufacturer. Otherwise, you can do what Jeff from TX said which is a good idea and exercise for newer Mil-Dot shooters.
     
  9. Jeff In TX

    Jeff In TX Well-Known Member

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    Macv,

    The mildot formula is very simple and pretty straightforward.

    First things first. Purchase a Mil-Dot master (see link), this way you don’t have to tote a calculator with you. This is the single best investment you can make and it’s around $29.00.

    Second, you’ve got to practice, practice and practice even more. An hour or so isn’t enough. The more you practice the better you’ll get. Most folks can break the mil-dots down into 1/2 and 1/4 increments. This is OK, but you want to be able to break them down into 1/8th and 1/10th increments. The smaller the increment the more accurate the range will be.

    OK, here goes. If you are going to use yards the formula is target size in inches multiplied by 27.77 divided by the number of mil-dots covering the target.

    Here are two examples.
    Example # 1 Lets say I’m ranging a deer and a deer’s chest is 18” from top to bottom. 18 X 27.77 = 499.86 so we can round to 500. Let say it takes 1.75 mil-dots to cover the deer’s chest top to bottom. Divide 500 by 1.75 and its 285 yards to the deer.

    Example #2 Lets say a ground hog standing is 15” tall. 15 X 27.77 = 417 rounded up. Let say it takes 1.25 mil-dots to cover the ground hog. 417 divided by 1.25 = 333 yards to the ground hog.

    If you are going to use meters then the here’s the formula.

    If you are going to use meters the formula is target size in inches multiplied by 25 divided by the number of mil-dots covering the target.

    Here are two examples.
    Example # 1 Lets say I’m ranging that same deer and a deer’s chest is 18” from top to bottom. 18 X 25 = 450. Let say it takes 1.75 mil-dots to cover the deer’s chest top to bottom. Divide 450 by 1.75 and its 257 meters to the deer.

    Example #2 Lets say I’m ranging the same ground hog, which is standing 15” tall. 15 X 25 = 375 rounded up. Let say it takes 1.25 mil-dots to cover the ground hog. 375 divided by 1.25 = 300 meters to the ground hog.

    It’s pretty straight forward, but buying a Mil-Dot Master sure makes it 10000000 times easier and quicker.

    Hope it helps.

    Jeff in TX

    [​IMG]
    Mil-Dot Master web page

    [ 09-11-2004: Message edited by: Jeff In TX ]
     
  10. milanuk

    milanuk Well-Known Member

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    Jeff got it pretty much dead on. Just in case you are wondering where that 27.77 came from, the original formula is for bigger targets, i.e. measured in yards or meters, not inches (what most American hunters size their game in). So the conversion is something like:

    {(target size in inches)/36}*1000 divided by mil read = distance in yards.

    If you manipulate the equation around to get 1000/36 and simplify it, it comes out as 27.78 or so. Similarly, thats how you get the 25.4 for the metric equation.

    Had me wondering for a minute how Jeff got the right answer until I figured it out; my version of 'simplifying' has always been to reach for a Mil-Dot Master [​IMG]

    HTH,

    Monte
     
  11. Jeff In TX

    Jeff In TX Well-Known Member

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    milanuk,

    You are absolutly correct with your figures. When I went through training with mil-dots we used 27.77 so old habits are hard to kick. For meters it is 25.4, but I choose to use a straight 25. I argued this point with my instructors and most of my class agreed with me.

    I've always considered a meter 10% longer than a yard. I like the KISS method of things in life and this has always been easier for me. 10% of 27.78 is 25, so that's why I've always used 25.

    But like you, I've had a Mil-Dot master since late 97 and have used it ever since. Single best investment anyone can make if they are using mil-dots for ranging.

    Thanks for keeping me honest and making sure everyone else understands what you and I are talking about.

    Have a great weekend.

    Jeff
     
  12. Steve Douglass

    Steve Douglass Well-Known Member

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    Macv, Jeff, and Milanuk,
    I'm new to the board, but would like to throw in a fews words. First, it's refreshing to converse with a few people that seem to know what they're talking about. I do some deer hunting and some tactical paper punching and I use nothing but mil-dot reticles. Although it's easier for me to reference my target size as a percentage of the 36" X 1000 divided by the mils. It does tend to be slightly less accurate, but you're dealing with easier numbers. For example: If you're black tail deer hunting which can be approximately 24". That's .67 rounded off times 1000 divided by the 1.75 mils. It comes to approx. 382 yds rather than the 381 yds in your calculation, but if you calculate your size variable in advance e.g. .67(1000)=670 or 24"(27.78)=666.72 then half your work is done. Just divide the mils and you're there. I use Butler Creek flip-up covers and I tape various info to the inside cover so that it's visible when I open it. I do this for both hunting and punching paper.

    Macv, I also have the book The Ultimate Sniper, good book. Thanks guys, have a good week.

    [ 09-13-2004: Message edited by: PracTac ]

    [ 09-13-2004: Message edited by: PracTac ]
     
  13. macv

    macv Active Member

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    Jeff in TX,Milanuk,Practac. Thank you all for all of that good info on mil dots. As I got home today from my trip it wasn't 10 min. when the man in the big brown trk. pulled up with my 4200 series bushnell scope. What timing. I am thrilled with it just looking out the window and can't wait to mount it on a rifle. It is very clear and the center crosshairs provide thin enough hairs to be precise when shooting at small dots.
    I know of the mildot master and will probably order one very soon. But I do like to work out the figures on paper with a calc. just to learn how to get the same answers in using different methods. I will try all that has been handed down to me and then determine which one I understand the best. [​IMG] I have printed out all of your good suggestions, this way I can read them over and over until I understand them completely. In my part time job I have a lot of down time so I think the scope will be going to work with me and I will spend time rangeing different things just for practice. I now feel that I have made the right decsion in chooseing the scope that I did. And if Im haveing a difficult time understanding the mildot system, I can always take an 80 mile ride to have John Plaster, author of the Ultimate Sniper, explain it to me. [​IMG] Again guys, thanks for all of the help in getting me started with mildots.
     
  14. macv

    macv Active Member

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    Hi guys, after being excited about the new scope, I deceided to read some instructions that came with it. In order to take a reading with this scope, it must first be set on 12X. But I will check it out also with the tape trick. The formula that Jeff gave to me seems to be very easy. Almost too easy for me to think that I understand it. [​IMG]
    But tell me how would you handle this situation. The bad guy stands approx.6 feet tall. So , if I get all of this,this is how it is worked out. 72 x27.77= 1999.44 and say he is ranged at 2.5 md. That would make the dis. 799.7 yds. But, would it be better to say 36" and that would be the area between top of head and waist line? Now, calculating it that way makes the distance 399.8 yds. Is my shot going to be way off it's mark. Or is this just another way to figure out this problem. Or am I making this harder for myself. Any answers would be helpful. [​IMG]