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Politics Of Hunting & Guns (NOT General Politics)
***i talked to an army soldier today about the 2nd ammendment****
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<blockquote data-quote="MontanaRifleman" data-source="post: 787431" data-attributes="member: 11717"><p>It's true that subordinates follow the orders of their superiors and that's why I said earlier that a lot will depend on the officers and senior NCO's as to how things fall out, if and when they fall out.</p><p></p><p>That said, Back in 82, when I went through OTS, we were taught (emphasized) that we had a moral/ethical obligation not to follow any immoral, unethical or unlawful orders. One of the case studies they used to teach us was Lt Calley and the My Lai massacre. I would assume that officers and NCO's are getting the same training today. Although these junior leaders are getting this training, disobeying an order from a superior is not an easy thing to do. It may be the right thing to do but it often will end a career or worse, but not always. I've squirmed my way through a couple of sticky decisions and fortunately made the right choice with no repercussions. </p><p></p><p>One of my AC's (Aircraft Commander), when he was a copilot was TDY to Eielson in AK. It was December and they were having some nasty record breaking weather. We flew KC-135's (air refuelers). They were scheduled a training air refueling against an RC-135 (reccy bird). The crew gets out to the jet and does the preflight. The copilot does the last check of the takeoff data and tells the AC, "we don't have 3 engine capability", because of runway and environment conditions, blah, blah, blah. Well there are 3 basic go- no go criteria for flyimg a mission. Peace time trainig, peace time operational and war time operational. This was a peace time training mission which means you need, as a minimum, the ability to takeoff with 3 engines in the event you loose one during the takeoff. Well the old crusty AC says we have 4 engines, we're going. The copilot says no we're not. Keep in mind, an RC-135 training mission is dependent on getting the refueling. So the 2nd LT navigator backs up the 1st LT co vs the old crusty Capt AC. Then the AC gets on the radio and says over the airways (really dumb thing to do) get me another co and nav so I can fly this mission. So the Reconnaissance Wing DO (full bull, second in command of the Wing) gets involved and radio talk goes back and forth and finally the mission is scrubbed. Long story short, the entire crew is flown back to home base and replaced by another crew (my crew). When they get back, the copilot and nav are hit with a number charges up to and including mutiny, which they are told they could face the death penalty. They both get private lawyers and after a long drawn out process, all charges are dismissed with no adverse affects to their careers... but definitely a lasting sour taste to them personally. </p><p></p><p>So.... leaders and junior leaders are taught that not all orders are lawful orders, etc. The question comes down to do they have the cajones to disobey an order and how do they interpret the Constitution and where do their loyalties lie?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="MontanaRifleman, post: 787431, member: 11717"] It's true that subordinates follow the orders of their superiors and that's why I said earlier that a lot will depend on the officers and senior NCO's as to how things fall out, if and when they fall out. That said, Back in 82, when I went through OTS, we were taught (emphasized) that we had a moral/ethical obligation not to follow any immoral, unethical or unlawful orders. One of the case studies they used to teach us was Lt Calley and the My Lai massacre. I would assume that officers and NCO's are getting the same training today. Although these junior leaders are getting this training, disobeying an order from a superior is not an easy thing to do. It may be the right thing to do but it often will end a career or worse, but not always. I've squirmed my way through a couple of sticky decisions and fortunately made the right choice with no repercussions. One of my AC's (Aircraft Commander), when he was a copilot was TDY to Eielson in AK. It was December and they were having some nasty record breaking weather. We flew KC-135's (air refuelers). They were scheduled a training air refueling against an RC-135 (reccy bird). The crew gets out to the jet and does the preflight. The copilot does the last check of the takeoff data and tells the AC, "we don't have 3 engine capability", because of runway and environment conditions, blah, blah, blah. Well there are 3 basic go- no go criteria for flyimg a mission. Peace time trainig, peace time operational and war time operational. This was a peace time training mission which means you need, as a minimum, the ability to takeoff with 3 engines in the event you loose one during the takeoff. Well the old crusty AC says we have 4 engines, we're going. The copilot says no we're not. Keep in mind, an RC-135 training mission is dependent on getting the refueling. So the 2nd LT navigator backs up the 1st LT co vs the old crusty Capt AC. Then the AC gets on the radio and says over the airways (really dumb thing to do) get me another co and nav so I can fly this mission. So the Reconnaissance Wing DO (full bull, second in command of the Wing) gets involved and radio talk goes back and forth and finally the mission is scrubbed. Long story short, the entire crew is flown back to home base and replaced by another crew (my crew). When they get back, the copilot and nav are hit with a number charges up to and including mutiny, which they are told they could face the death penalty. They both get private lawyers and after a long drawn out process, all charges are dismissed with no adverse affects to their careers... but definitely a lasting sour taste to them personally. So.... leaders and junior leaders are taught that not all orders are lawful orders, etc. The question comes down to do they have the cajones to disobey an order and how do they interpret the Constitution and where do their loyalties lie? [/QUOTE]
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***i talked to an army soldier today about the 2nd ammendment****
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