I need some help with Redding Dies.....

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by AtownBcat, Dec 4, 2009.

  1. AtownBcat

    AtownBcat Well-Known Member

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    I just bought(lightly used) a set of competition bushing neck die and the competition seater. There was however no instructions and I have looked on the redding web page but couldn't find the set up instructions. So anyone who could share the set up instructions, would be very helpful.
    Second I did not recieve any bushings with them so i have a new toy i can't do much with right now. I do not have a ball mircometer but do have a set of calipers. My loaded rounds measured .334. Is this measurement close enough to buy a bushing? Also I have heard that it is ok to go anywhere for .001 to .010 for neck tension(i guess in my case it would be bushings than range from .334 to .324.) This seams like a pertty big gap and was hopeing someone could tell me what has worked for them. My necks are not turned but i will buy a forester unit on Saturday.
    here are some details:300WM,Winchester Brass,180 gr Accubond,Currently using lee collet neck die(i like this die but the decapper rod in the FL die was giving me some problems.)If you need any more details please let me know.
     
  2. woods

    woods Well-Known Member

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    With an OD of .334" you can get bushings to give whatever bullet grip (ID) you want. Generally bullet grips are from .001" to .003". Anything more than .003" and you run the risk of creating runout from too much seating pressure. .001" might be considered a little light by some and you run the risk of bullets moving in the case from recoil or some other reason. I would get a bushing size .332" and .331" and you can play with the .002" or .003" bullet grip.

    You can also calculate your general neck thickness from that one measurement:

    .334"-.308"=.026"/2=.013" per side. This is right in the middle since it is considered bad mojo to turn below .010" and .015" is considered thick. Depending upon how consistant your neck thickness is, you may not have to turn at all.
     

  3. Winchester 69

    Winchester 69 Well-Known Member

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    What do you expect to gain by neck turning? You don't know what variation there is in neck thickness, and you don't know what your case-neck to chamber clearance is. You may only need to cull your brass. I'd get a ball mic first.
     
  4. AtownBcat

    AtownBcat Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the replys.

    Winchester69, im just a novice reloader, but if i understand things correctly any neck thickness more than .002 is not acceptable. if lets say your neck had a +/- .005 and you ran it through a bushing die it would force the uneven areas of the neck inward giving you different neck tension. If all necks are turned to a standard .002 the neck tension is consistant. if i have misunderstood something please let me know.
     
  5. Winchester 69

    Winchester 69 Well-Known Member

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    You may not want a variation in neck thickness of more than 0.002". The actual neck thickness is substantially more than that as has been calculated for you (0.013"). Neck-turning is most effective for fitting the brass to a custom chamber such that a clearance of 0.003" is maintained. This centers the bullet in the bore. If you have any brass that is overly uneven, then it is best culled; turning it doesn't correct the condition as the brass is uneven for its entire length and will go banana-shaped as it stretches. That is the reason for my suggestion for a ball mic.

    When you go to custom barrels is the time for neck-turning. Even at that, many these days just get a barrel chamber diameter to suit the brass they are using (no-turn chamber) and cull the out-of-spec brass. The inside/outside debate isn't going to mean much with a factory barrel.

    I apologize for my earlier post sounding challenging. I'm an engineer, and my thought train runs technically rather than diplomatically. I'm most concerned with you understanding what you are doing and saving you from a practice that is unpleasant while possibly serving little benefit. We mostly learn by doing things incorrectly, but it isn't always necessary. An inexpensive ball mic is much more pleasant to use than a neck-turning tool.
     
  6. woods

    woods Well-Known Member

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    You are on the right track but like Winchester says, the benefits may be minimal. You can turn a neck with a large variation in neck thickness but it will always be a POS except for fouling shots. However, if you cull your brass and turn a case with a small amount of neck variation, IMO you will benefit from more consistant bullet grip.

    Even with outside neck turning it is difficult to get a 100% consistant ID and bullet grip. I use a set of pin gauges to check the ID of the cases as the last step in case prep and after neck turning and sizing with a bushing die, the ID has varied by .001". I know you already have the bushing die but if you were just considering purchasing a die, then I would recommend a Lee Collet which gives 100% consistant ID's.
     
  7. AtownBcat

    AtownBcat Well-Known Member

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    Thanks again for the replys,

    Guys, i think that part of the problem is i may not be using the correct terms. I have a lee collet neck die along with a lee full length die. What got me looking into higher quality dies was a i purchased a RCBS case master, and i measured the consintrisity (my spelling sucks and its early please forgive) and most of the brass was between <.001 and .002. My dad had just bought a new sendero so his fired brass would not chamber in the new gun so I had to full length the brass. When the brass came out of the FL die it was no longer in thoes ranges, more like .005 to .008....I posted a question here and the opionon here was bent decapper/expander rod. There were a couple of people who suggested redding type s dies as i guess they will not cause this issue. I found the neck die and seater first and have ordered the type S FL die. The redding wep page is where i found the suggestion to turn the necks. so i guess that consitristy is not a measurment of neck thickness(but a major cause of bullet runout???)but how round the nech is? Like i said im a novice reloader and more like a sum what educated redneck than an engineer.:)

    Some other info:my Dad,uncle and myself all have 300WM (since I was new to reloading and we were all new to long range shooting/hunting we thought this would simplify things for all of us. They both bought sendero's and i had a 700 action so i had Krieger build a gun for me(but i didn't do anything custom with the chamber just cut to min sammi specks)
     
  8. woods

    woods Well-Known Member

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    Okay, so your FL dies creates runout but you are having good luck with the Lee Collet.

    My suggestion would be to get a Redding Body Die in 300 win mag

    Redding Body Die 300 Winchester Magnum - MidwayUSA

    You can adjust the body die to size the cases back to where they will fit in any rifle, just like a FL die. They do not size the necks. Use your Lee Collet to get the good concentricity you got with your rifle on all the other rifles, then adjust the Redding Body Die as needed to make the cases fit as needed.

    IMO bushing dies do work best when coupled with outside neck turning. Save the money on the outside neck turning and you will be way ahead by spending $24.00 on a Redding Body Die.
     
  9. AtownBcat

    AtownBcat Well-Known Member

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    OK, but how do i fix the brass that now has runout issues? I have run them back through the collet die(ran it into the die rotated 180 and ran it back through but this did not correct the problem)?
     
  10. AtownBcat

    AtownBcat Well-Known Member

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    woods, don't bail on me now...how do i fix the runout issues that were caused by the lee fl die?
     
  11. Winchester 69

    Winchester 69 Well-Known Member

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    Has your new Redding Type-S FL sizer arrived? You may have a situation that your body die won't correct.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2009
  12. AtownBcat

    AtownBcat Well-Known Member

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    no,im hopeing tomorrow....
     
  13. woods

    woods Well-Known Member

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    Shoot them and use the Lee Collet & Redding Body Die the next time.

    Or you can buy a Bersin Tool like I have with which you can push them back in line
    [​IMG]

    a little expensive for just one problem.

    Hornady also makes a new concentricity gauge where you can push the bullet and reduce runout
    [​IMG]

    they are so new that they are hard to come by. Barsness talks about drilling holes in a 2x4, inserting the bullet and pushing on it. I have pushed necks by using the next largest collet bullet puller and inserting the whole neck up in it and pushing the case body (trial and error but it does work).

    No easy answer.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2009
  14. MontanaRifleman

    MontanaRifleman Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like you are getting a Redding Type S Bushing FL die... If so, I highly recommend turning your necks. Some say this is not necessary, but it surely can not hurt and certainly contributes to consistancy which is what handloading is all about. I agree that some brass may need to be culled out, but I think it pays to turn necks if you are going to bushing size and there are a lot of very experienced handloaders who would agree.

    That being said, I turn my necks on an RCBS Trimpro. I would think the process of running the reamer into the neck would help get it concentric, at least on the Trimpro. After turning your necks, size them with the bushing die. This should get them very close. The Redding bushing die should get them very close regardless of neck turning.

    Maybe someone else has an idea of to get your necks straight again and hopefully they will chime if they do know. But I think the Redding die should get your necks back to straight.

    Hope that helps and let us know what you do and how it turns out.

    Mark