OK, bear with me if this becomes a long post. Got out to the range today to test some loads for the 18th. Anyway, Thought I would start with some once fired brass to see if I could get groups like the last time I posted. did 5 shot groups different powder charge for each group for 20 shots.. Groups were pretty good but not as good as my last trip...hmmmmmm I did adjust seating depth as recomended by a few so I thought that was the problem. No worries...still good groups. Then for the heck of it I tried the same charges as the groups above but this time used new unfired, Un neck turned brass. Just flash holes and primer pockets. WOW My groups shrunk big time. See my example below for vel etc. on one particular load and group. Once fired neck turned etc hi=2849 low=2808 es=41 avg=2834 SD= 15 New virgin brass Hi= 2840 low=2828 es= 12 Avg 2835 SD= 4 OK, Vel is pretty close on both of them...I know I could go higher but this is the load that seems to group the best right now. Why the difference in groups as well as Vel numbers. Here is my thought. Neck turning is kickin my butt here. A wise Man C.M. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif told me dont even fool with neck turning. I figured I'd listen to him and got a better group. I know there are more details involved but my thought is I was messin with hte brass too much and makin things worse instead of better. Also..The unturned new brass!! was all sized on a standard redding F/L die. No fancy neck bushings etc. Needless to say come the 18th, I will have a bunch of loads from virgin brass and not really screaming. I know I need to do the test over to see if this is really an issue, but the groups just shrank on all the unfired new brass. Hmmmm did I just make the neck more sloppy by turnin? Anyway...These are the things that just caused me an annurism (sp) and splitting headache for the day. Your opinions are very welcome and needed. Joe BTW if anyone is curious about the groups...The new brass best group for 5 shots this time went into .3 easy. And thats doing it the way JB1000 and others told me about /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Worst group of the bunch all in all went into .5 Kind off disapointed me after seeing this thing shoot better. I know it's my loads and me and not the gun. Too funny, listen to me complain about a half inch group...You guys ruined me!