I can't believe this

Discussion in 'Long Range Scopes and Other Optics' started by Guest, Feb 2, 2003.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I can\'t believe this

    After chasing around loads that seem very promising,only to have them suddenly fall apart,for weeks now. I have noticed my nightforce slipping forward, ever so slightly,every few shots.ARGHHHH!!!! [​IMG]
    Burris signature zee rings with the plastic inserts.
    Does anybody know how to stop this for sure ,and how much torque to put on the ring screws?
    I noticed they are spitting oil,I'll clean them first.
     

  2. Brent

    Brent Well-Known Member

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    Re: I can\'t believe this

    Never had a problem with them using the 3.5-10x40 on my 416wby, it is lighter than the NF though. You might try tightening it up after making sure it is dry and clean. Are the inserts or rings either one making contact at the edges on both sides and not clamping the scope all the way?
     

  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: I can\'t believe this

    I have not tightened them enough to pull the rings all the way together. I have been using 15 inch pounds of torque. I don't remember why I started using that amount of torque.It was based on something originally but I can't remember now. How tight should the rings be?
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: I can\'t believe this

    frank--
    If you go ahead and get them clean and dry and use 20-25 inch pounds you won't have anymore problems. They are really slick with oil on them, but work well when dry. Use some acetone or Gunscrubber to clean the inserts--this will dry them completely.
     
  5. Brent

    Brent Well-Known Member

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    Re: I can\'t believe this

    I tend to torque mine probably a bit more than I need to, I'll just say I'd be better off using a torx bit not the allen head ones. Someday I may never get one of mine loose! [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I had my Nikon slide in the rings once and it slammed the hell out of it before I noticed it, I've over torqued them ever since. [​IMG]
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: I can\'t believe this

    Brent, I totally understand where you are coming from.I'll be useing a 4ft cheater bar on my ring screws from now on.
    That or 25inch pounds,whatever works. [​IMG]
     
  7. Ian M

    Ian M Well-Known Member

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    Re: I can\'t believe this

    Frankg
    Scope like NXS and MK4's have significantly thicker aluminum bodies and can take more torque when you tighten scope rings, but most 1" tubes will collapse to varying degrees if you over squeeze them by tightening too much. I have seen several Leupold VariX111's that have recessed areas on the tube where the rings were clamped too tight. I also have a Leupold 6.5-20 that I overtightened, just using the little allen wrench with the resulting squeeze section, looks like hell but the scope functions OK. I knew that I should not overtighten those rings, thought I was just getting them snug and still crimped the barrel.
    I was told that the large tactical style rings such as Badgers and MK4's develope significant clamping forces because they have four capscrews sucking down rather than two. That is why they only need 15 inch-pounds, plus they have a very large contact area to the scope tube.
    Just thought I would warn that too tight can be as big a problem as too loose. Too tight can also cause internal stuff to jam. They weight of your scope might also be a factor, heavy scopes are apparently more difficult to hold in place than a light scope.
    If drying the plastic inserts does not help you might need a set of rings with more contact area, I would be carefull about overtightening the screws. We can also damage the entegrity of the screw by overtightening it, many armourers throw away used screws because they fear that "stretching" has taken place. These guys always replace new ones, preferably TORX.
     
  8. Brent

    Brent Well-Known Member

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    Re: I can\'t believe this

    Ian,

    The very scope that slipped in the rings, I took it off at some point later after I torqued the hell out if it because it slipped. The tube was like you say slightly smaller having been squeezed under the rings. No affect to the scope, but you could feel at the edges of where the rings were that it was crushed some.

    That was taken into consideration when I used the Ruger rings and later the Burris insert rings on my Ruger 416wby with the 3.5-10 Leopold. I tightened tham just as tight on the Ruger rings. When I removed it to use the Burris set for more elevation offset, there was absolutly no marks or crushing at all. I figured it would. I was expecting it might try to move in the rings so it was tightend hard as well. Later I went from 30 moa inserts to 40 moa and noticed when I had the scope off the Burris rings had not squeezed the tube either. I don't know if this is indicitive of how thick the tubes are comparing Leopold and Nikon, just my experience.

    I agree that the clamping force is due to bolt stretch not the friction between the threads and the head. If you over stretch them or stretch them too many times (3 times max IMHO) they will loose their tension. Many bolts actually create more clamping force when stretched to the same length the second time than they do the first. On the third it just about equals the first and goes on a downward trend steeply on or after the fourth retorque. This is true for a pistons connecting rod bolts I know for sure.

    As scientific or methodical as I usally am about these type things, I still prefer and trust my "feel" for the torque on most bolts or screws. I do however use a torque wrench for rods, mains, head bolts and a few other things of extra critical natures. [​IMG]
     
  9. Ian M

    Ian M Well-Known Member

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    Re: I can\'t believe this

    Brent,
    I once saw several 3.5-10x40 1" Leupold variables that had all been overtightened, causing a very obvious ring indentation, to the eye and that could be felt when you touched the tube. Another time I put a brand new Burris Black Diamond into Burris rings and torqued the capscrews and managed to make a pinch type mark where the ring halves came together. That really pissed me off because the tension was only 15 inch-pouinds and still the rings dinged the scope body. Cosmetic only but still there (this was not the style with the plastic insert).
    I find these matte finished scopes much easier to mark, particularly at the join area where the rings should come together. Some rings are just too sharp cornered, they scratch too easily. That is one real benefit of the plastic inserts as in the Burris's, Sako's etc.
    Interesting comments on the screws/bolts stretching - all the more reason to use a torque screwdriver or wrench.
    Also I guess this is why I like Badgers, never heard of a scope slipping in those suckers.
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: I can\'t believe this

    [ 07-12-2003: Message edited by: S1 ]
     
  11. CAM

    CAM Well-Known Member

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    Re: I can\'t believe this

    When mounting the rings (nightforce) on a one piece mil-std-1913 base. before tighening there is play in the ring to base slot (forward and back). do you guys but both rings to the back of the slot, both rings to the front, back to front front to back, or front to front and back to back? Do you keep the rings as far apart as possible?

    Thanks CAM
     
  12. Ian M

    Ian M Well-Known Member

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    Re: I can\'t believe this

    Cam,
    When we install the rings onto the Picatinny style bases such as Badgers or Nears we always push each ring forward, as in towards the muzzle and lock it with the 1/2" socket. Then I use the 65 inch-pound Seekonk snap-wrench on the nut. Idea is that recoil forces backward are best handled by having the rings tight to the ring slot in the direction that the forces are coming from.
    Have never tried any of the other combinations, perhaps there is some merit to another method, but full forward has worked very well on a large number of rifles.

    S1 just used the dreaded term "lapped" - perhaps he could suggest a good procedure for lapping rings. I have done the procedure several times with MK4's and was surprised at how much polishing and metal removal took place. Have never lapped with Badgers. I am too dense to understand how the top portion or shell of a ring does not have a significant input in fitting the scope to the rifle - I have been told that it is the equivalent to steel "duct-tape" and that only the bottom shell has to be lapped.
     
  13. CAM

    CAM Well-Known Member

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    Re: I can\'t believe this

    Thanks Ian
    I will push both rings forward and torque.

    Before lapping I was told to tighten the rings onto the lapping bar and touque them down. Disassemble and lap the bottom rings, and assemble with scope.
    This sounds like a resonable way to check every thing out and not smash the scope.

    [ 02-04-2003: Message edited by: Cam ]
     
  14. Brent

    Brent Well-Known Member

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    Re: I can\'t believe this

    Ian,

    I have always pushed my rings forward too for the reason you stated.

    The reason the bottom only needs to be lapped in my experience, is that when the rings are torqued to the bases, as you know the scope will not make even contact with the lower halves even with the slightest misalignment. The tops halves simply follow or float on the scope tube, aligning themselves with the tube until, and "if" they make contact with the edges of the lower half, at which point they will "then" distort the tube. I've only seen that on Ruger rings, as they come awfull cose to contacting each other even before lapping. Be carefull to keep clearance on each side equal and it usually won't happen.

    I never tighten them on the bar first for this reason. The rings will not set in their natural position and be lifted up in the front or rear as they are torqued to the bar, so when they are tightened to the bases it will now not even need lapping because it is already in alignment with the tube, or really, really close. I see the purpose of lapping to do just the opposite, to seat them naturally, up forward and tight where they want to set. After that, lapping aligns the bottoms, placing no stress on the tube.

    Hope that helps. [​IMG]