I am so confused

Discussion in 'Long Range Scopes and Other Optics' started by EZSniper, Jun 30, 2002.

  1. EZSniper

    EZSniper New Member

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    My head is spinning from all of the choices out there and now I find myself frustrated with the options. I just purchased the Remington Model 700 VS LH .308 rifle and now in the market for a scope. Can anyone make a suggestion on a midrange ($550) scope 6-24x50 with finger adjustments for W&E?

    Help please?

    EZ
     
  2. Darryl Cassel

    Darryl Cassel Well-Known Member

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    Leupold 6 1/2 to 20X might work for you and that scope is under the amount you mentioned if you find a used one.

    I would look for a used Leupold LR 30MM tube 8 1/2X to 25X with the side wheel focus.

    All the new LR and Target Leupolds are 1/4 MIN clicks and have the windage and elevation target knobs.

    Later
    DC
     

  3. Ian M

    Ian M Well-Known Member

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    EZ,
    Whatever you buy, do not get a scope with 1/8 minute adjustments if you wish to shoot long. They cut your effective elevation adjustments in half - have seen several guys run out of adjustments at 600 yards.

    As for mounts, I suggest that you consider some two-piece sloped bases (gives you an additional 20moa, maybe get them from Nightforce or other makers in the Brownell catalog). For rings I suggest a set of the Warne Maxima rings but get the model without detachable locking levers (Model 214M for 30mm or Model 201M for 1 inch) - they are very reasonably priced and super strong. These Warnes are NOT well known and they are very nice. Excellent long range rings without a huge cost. I have been using them for some time - very tough and good looking, maybe 50 bucks.
     
  4. MontanaMarine

    MontanaMarine Well-Known Member

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    If you want to shoot out to 1000 yards you should seriously consider spending a little bit more (700-800 dollars) and getting a Leupold Long Range scope with 30MM tube and extra elevation adjustment. Or something similar...

    I have bought a couple Leupold LR scopes, a 3.5-10x40 M3, and a 6.5-20x50. Now I do not even like to use my cheaper "bargain" priced junk.

    Premier Reticles is a company thatsells Leupold scopes with many options.

    I have a Rem 700 VS LH also, with the 3.5-10x40 LR M3 I have shot many .3 inch 5-shot groups with handloaded Sierra 190gr HPBT Matchkings. Without any alterations or gunsmithing to the rifle.

    Good Luck! Here is a link to Premier Reticles, they are worth checking out.

    MM
    http://www.premierreticles.com/
     
  5. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

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    1/8" click scopes are good and have nothing to do with running out of elevation. The nightforce are 1/8" and have 2-4X the elevation a most of 1/4 minute scopes. Mixing apples and oranges. The key factor in elevation is scope tube diameter. Tubes that are 30mm will have more elevation whether 1/8 or 1/4". Buy good Leupold 8-25 or 6.5-20. Not going to outrun scope anyway with 308. Also if you are Hunter Education Instructor Leupold has great discount program on their scopes. Well below distributor.
     
  6. Ian M

    Ian M Well-Known Member

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    As Darryl posted, Leupolds' line of long range scopes are 1/4 minute adjustments and the Nightforce NXS scopes are all 1/4 minute also. Older Nightforce designs, intended for benchrest (as they are named) are 1/8 minute.
    Let's say your turret, whether in a 1" or 30mm tube can turn ten revolutions. If it is calibrated for 1/8th the bullet will simply move 1/2 as much as it would if the calibration was 1/4moa.
    No doubt most 30mm scopes enable the cell to move more than a 1" tube, but having the finer threads for 1/8 minute adjustments cuts the elevation potential in half. I have several of both, believe me, 1/8th are a pain in the ass when your are cranking come-ups out at 1000. That is why the Leupold M3's have 1 moa elevation adjustments.
     
  7. Steve Shelp

    Steve Shelp Well-Known Member

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    IanM,
    Your normally right on top of stuff but your not looking at this correctly. If you have a 1" threaded rod with 8 pitch threads it's takes 8 revs to move a nut the whole length of the threaded rod which is 1" long. If it has 16 pitch threads you would simply turn the nut 16 time now to travel the same 1" length of the rod. It simply take twice as many "click" or revs to go the same distance.

    I use a NF 12-42, 1/8MOA model scope on my HG rifle and it still takes the same 25MOA +- to get zeroed at a match whether it has a 1/2, 1/4, or 1/8 model scope. It would simply take (50) 1/2MOA clicks, (100) 1/4MOA clicks, or (200) 1/8MOA clicks, but the bullet would still be raised up the same 25MOA to give me the same amount of drop.

    I do like the 1/8MOA clicks for BR work, but the 1/4MOA clicks are much simplier to calcualted in your head for true field work. I do agree with you on that.

    Steve
     
  8. Ian M

    Ian M Well-Known Member

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    Steve,
    I did not do a very good job of explaining what I meant. I understand what you are saying about the screw pitch description - thanks. I admit to being completely mechanically challenged - work on the adage - righty tighty, lefty loosie... when it comes to screws and bolts.

    Here is what I have found - I will use two of my scopes as an example - both 30mm tubes.
    My Burris Black Diamond 3x-12x has 1/4 minute adjustments and it has almost 100 moa. All Black Diamond scopes with 1/4 minute adjustments have that same figure. My Burris Black Diamond 8-32 has 1/8 minute and it has 39 minutes, the 6-24 has 52 minutes. Same appearing turrets, I get less total adjustment movement with the 1/8 minute turret.

    No doubt there are some 1/8 minute turrets that provide more adjustment, depending on their design but I have some Nikon 6.5-20's (1") that only have 38 moa and a Bushnell 4200 (1") 6-24 that only has 26 moa. Even with sloped bases these scopes can run out of adjustment pretty quick as they rarely zero at the bottom of their range. Plus you have to count more clicks, which is a pain.

    I suggested not to get a 1/8th minute scope for LR because we recently had several guys shooting from 600 to 800 with some of the above scopes and they all ran out of adjustments before they got to 800.
     
  9. Ian M

    Ian M Well-Known Member

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    Steve,
    I did not do a very good job of explaining what I meant. I understand what you are saying about the screw pitch description - thanks. I admit to being completely mechanically challenged - work on the adage - righty tighty, lefty loosie... when it comes to screws and bolts.

    Here is what I have found - I will use two of my scopes as an example - both 30mm tubes.
    My Burris Black Diamond 3x-12x has 1/4 minute adjustments and it has almost 100 moa. All Black Diamond scopes with 1/4 minute adjustments have that same figure. My Burris Black Diamond 8-32 has 1/8 minute and it has 39 minutes, the 6-24 has 52 minutes. Same appearing turrets, I get less total adjustment movement with the 1/8 minute turret.

    No doubt there are some 1/8 minute turrets that provide more adjustment, depending on their design but I have some Nikon 6.5-20's (1") that only have 38 moa and a Bushnell 4200 (1") 6-24 that only has 26 moa. Even with sloped bases these scopes can run out of adjustment pretty quick as they rarely zero at the bottom of their range. Plus you have to count more clicks, which is a pain.

    I suggested not to get a 1/8th minute scope for LR because we recently had several guys shooting from 600 to 800 with some of the above scopes and they all ran out of adjustments before they got to 800.
     
  10. Steve Shelp

    Steve Shelp Well-Known Member

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    Ian M,
    OK I see what your driving at. I'm not an optics engineer and won't even come close to try to explain the design of scopes and optics, but here's my limited understanding.

    Notice in your (2) 1/8 click models you mentioned that they are much higher power than your 1/4 click models. Due to limitation of optics with focus distances, restricted size of a rifle scope and such, if you go up on magnification you loose some things. And one of them is adjustment range. This is independent of the click value though. If you look over any of the scope manufacturers reference charts you'll notice the higher the magnification the lower the total adjsutment range as a general rule. This included 1/4 or 1/8 click value. As you mentioned before different scope models and manufacturer due vary a little.

    A prime example to show the difference in magnification vs adjsutment range is the (2) Nightforce Benchrest models the 8-32 and 12-42 models both with 1/8MOA clicks almost exact same size lenses and outside dimensions. The 8-32 model has 50in of travel for elevation and windage. But the 12-42 only has 40in in both directions. Same sized 30MM tube, same diameter lenses, etc, etc. I beleive this is the difference your seeing in the amount of travel of 1/8 vs 1/4 click scopes. Almost all scope with 1/8 clicks are in the higher magnification range so it would be easy to come to that conclusion.

    Hope this explains it somewhat clear than mud. Or another way to look at it is if I take an existing Leopold scope that has x amount of travel and send it to Dick Thomas of Premier Reticles to change the click value to something finer, I'll get back a scope with the same amount of travel still in it, but the click value will change to a finer or courser value depending on what work is done because all else stayed the same within reason.

    Everyone have a great Independence Day!
    Steve
     
  11. EZSniper

    EZSniper New Member

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    Jun 23, 2002
    Thank you everyone for your input, here is what I bought.

    Leupold 51668 Vari-X III 4.5-14x50mm Long Range Tactical Matte 4.5-14x50 Mil Dot 1/4 MOA clicks, 80 MOA total.

    How'd I do?

    EZ
     
  12. Darryl Cassel

    Darryl Cassel Well-Known Member

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    Just fine.
     
  13. MontanaMarine

    MontanaMarine Well-Known Member

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    Nice choice EZ.

    MM
     
  14. Ian M

    Ian M Well-Known Member

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    Dave King uses one of those particular scopes when he launches those "ineffective" Match Kings. I don't have one but used Dave's scope a while back and it is very fine.
    Good luck with your new rig.