hrndy vmax comming apart?

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by britz, Jan 31, 2010.

  1. britz

    britz Well-Known Member

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    well, I've been busy as heck this year and haven't gotten out shooting much, but I did yesterday again. I was shooting my savage 12 w/ a 12 twist 22-250 and 40 gr vmax's set on top of 39.5g IMR 4895. I was getting about 4250 fps w/ my chrono ( not sure how accurate it is but I think it is in the ballpark???). Anywho... I shot my first group w/ 3 rds at 200 w/in about 1.5" or so. Next group using a bipod shot 3 rounds and two hit paper about 3" apart and a third missed the 8.5 x 11" paper.

    I was a little embarased to say the least. I shot a total of 7-3 rd groups at 200 yards and I was getting similar results... bipod didn't work to well w/ the cheap factory stock but when shooting off of sand bags I was able to get either a .75 MOA group or I was getting 5-6" or even missing the paper all together.

    I know this isn't a very good test, and it will have to be done again to confirm, but I'm wondering if I could be experiencing bullet failure w/ pushing the light bullet a little too fast.

    I will also add that the bore of this rifle is not that smooth... It is hard as H-E-double toothpicks to clean the copper out.

    I'm no BR shooter or anything, but I hope I haven't lost my edge by that much LOL!

    Thanks for any insite, Mark.
     
  2. Jamie6.5

    Jamie6.5 Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like you need to visit Mr. Tubbs, and smooth up that barrel a little.
     

  3. bigngreen

    bigngreen Well-Known Member

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    I've had that problem also, I went to the 50+gr v-max. I got the best accuracy out of the 55gr v-max. I never checked the bore of that rifle but if a guys on the raged edge that may be enough to jack some up. I wonder about the Tubbs solution also.
     
  4. britz

    britz Well-Known Member

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    I'm so frustrated because I've tried 60's, 55's, 50's, Nosler bt's V-max's 52 Amax's, sierra blitzkings... I've used IMR 4064, H380, IMR4895, I've fired over 400 rounds in testing trying to find somthing this rifle will group and like. Had it sent back in to be rebarreled and the same results. I looked at the test group sent back w/ the rifle and they were 40NBT's and a .75" 3 shot group (which the factory listed as half inch :( )

    I finally got the 40's to shoot nice tight groups at 100 most of the time and this is what happened when I moved to 200 yards! Just gotta laugh at it all.
     
  5. Tikkamike

    Tikkamike Well-Known Member

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    There are a lot of things I would eliminate before spending the money on tubbs lapping bullets. First we need to figure out why do you shoot better off bags than a bipod? is it because the bipod is really so shaky that your missing paper or is the swivel stud close enough to the barrel that when the gun goes off and the barrel whips it hits it? You gun will shoot a lot different resting clear out on the end than it will on bags close to the bhanber if ites not completely floated or like I said the stud on the inside. Second what are you cleaning practices? are you using JB's or rem bore or something to rub the pasivative surface off the copper so your solvent can corrode it away? What does your throat look like? And the most simple of all is are your rings and bases tight? and was the rifle bedded properly when you put it together last time? front screw first then rear? Then of course maybe your theory that the bullet is just too light. I doubt its coming apart but maybe you should try a 55 gr. or something. if all the free stuff doesnt fix it try the tubbs. I used them and they worked well to smooth up my barrel.
     
  6. MTBULLET

    MTBULLET Well-Known Member

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    for what it's worth, i have a newly finished BERGARA bbl'd 22-250 (1-10 twist) that I just got done building. I've found that it will shoot .474" 100 yd groups off the heavy cardwell rest but only .667 or so with the bipods (harris) I had a friend shoot it and I watched as the gun moved a BUNCH when using the bipods off the bencn (solid concrete top). moved to the ground, prone with bipods, and the groups came back to .48-.50, so that could be your problem also. I was amazed that this rather heavy rifle in a small cal. would jump like that.
     
  7. Fitch

    Fitch Well-Known Member

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    I've had much better luck with the 40g NBT and 55g NBT in my Savage LRPV than with V-Max bullets. The results you are getting are pretty ragged, more ragged than I'd expect to see from just a bullet difference.

    Things that come to mind as making a rifle erratic like that are:

    Loose scope mounts.
    Bad scope.
    Bad bedding/loose action screws.
    Barrel touching the stock someplace.
    Loose barrel/receiver joint (not torqued enough).
    Bullets inconsistantly touching/not touching the lands.
    Brass that's right on the edge of being too long so some crimps bullets, some doesn't.
    Eccentric chamber.
    Reamer chatter in the chamber and throat.
    Damaged crown (if there is an abberation on edge of the the crown, no matter how small, if it is big enough that you can see it, it's a defect that can cause problems).
    Goobers in the barrel. Bore sighter damage near the muzzle, cleaning rod damage on either end, <whatever>. I just looked at a .22-250 that had a whole land worn away on one side of the bore at and beyond the throat from cleaning rod damage (the guy doesn't believe in bore guides so he gets to buy a new barrel).
    Bore exhibiting severe tooling chatter (makes them copper up real fast).
    Thermal errosion in the throat.
    Severe eccentricity in loaded ammo.
    Action severly out of true.
    Bolt mating with only one lug.
    Loose bolt with lots of vertical bolt play back near the bolt handle.

    You might learn a lot from a good borescope examination. I've seen some pretty amazing things in rifles with "new" barrels.

    First thing I'd do is check the easy stuff first. But I'd check for all of it. It has to be "something". And there is no rule that says it has to be just one thing. It could be several things wrong.

    Fitch
     
  8. britz

    britz Well-Known Member

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    scope fine, tight and installed correctly. Crown fine, brass fully prepped and trimmed, powder charge was correct,

    but the bore does have lots of tool "chatter" as you call it. The bore looked terrible from new and only has about 700 rds through it and has never gotten too hot.
     
  9. Tikkamike

    Tikkamike Well-Known Member

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    Nice post Fitch. you did a Much better job of explaining than I did.
     
  10. britz

    britz Well-Known Member

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    I went to the range again today and the 39.5 g load was holding about a 1' (foot) pattern at 200. backed off half a gran and I got a 2" 5 shot group.

    I scrubbed the bore w/ jb bore bright until the patch was wore out litterally. Man... I've never seen a barrel that looked worse in my life! I see machine marks all over the thing. I was really supprised when I did a latter test using 50 grain noslers as well. I am going to try the 40 hornady's again w/ 39.0 grain again to duplicate it. And I was starting to get a little more steady towards the end of my shooting lol!

    I was a little suprised that my Redding comp seating die was leaving a ring on the bullets. I pulled it apart and cleaned it but it still leaves a ring on the bullets. Anyone else notice their dies doing this?

    thanks for reading,
    Mark.
     
  11. Kiwi Nate

    Kiwi Nate Well-Known Member

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    Aside from reloading issues, a client brought a Savage rifle to me in 2008, shooting 14-18" groups at 100 yards. The rifle was bedded and the fore-end reinforced which brought groups down to .75" with the same ammo initially used. One of the major causes of the excessive spread was the pillars in the stock as fitted at the factory. The pillars were proud and creating more than the normal share of fit problems (synthetic stock).

    Your sandbag versus bipod shooting sounds like it may be inicative of bedding problems. I would never shoot an unbedded rifle and expect good results but thats just me. Other guys like to try the rifle first and it it shoots OK, leave it as is. The problem with this is that each time the rifle is assembled and reassembled, the slight differences in screw tension cause unexpected problems. With wood stocked rifles, moisture and oil also cause unexpected problems later on.

    Good luck with it all.
     
  12. britz

    britz Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the insight. I do think I will bed the rifle, but I'm leaning towards doing it myself. I am curious about the steps one should take to ensure the bedding doesn't adhere to the action. I am considering using industrial epoxy since we have it for work (imbedding rebar into concrete) but I am also curious if this is a bad idea. I just don't like the idea of sticking much $$ into a rifle like this.
     
  13. Fitch

    Fitch Well-Known Member

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    You might check out Darrel Holland's DVD on bedding. There are others out there (Richard Franklin also has one out) but Holland's is the one I watched.

    Google rifle bedding and you will find a bunch of good informaiton.

    Fitch
     
  14. Kiwi Nate

    Kiwi Nate Well-Known Member

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    You can try the bedding compound instructions from my website too. The instructions are fairly generic regardless of what compound you are using.
    Terminal Ballistics Research Ltd